2013 Indian Chief Classic: Cool Factor 42%

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2013 Indian Chief Classic: Cool Factor 42%

Unread post by totalmotorcycle » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:17 pm

2013 Indian Chief Classic on the Total Motorcycle Cool Wall

More photos and information: http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/motorcyc ... lassic.htm

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2013 Indian Chief Classic

Raw. Powerful. And begging to be ridden.

Built of the bare essentials, like a a 105ci PowerPlus engine and a two-into-one stainless steel exhaust system, the Chief Classic is anything but stripped down, providing all you need to cruise the roadways in style and comfort.

The 2013 Indian Chief Classic is what an Indian motorcycle is meant to be. Built with only the essentials: a thick, solo black leather seat with hand-sewn double stitching, refined 105ci PowerPlus engine, two-into-one stainless steel exhaust system, and chromed spoke wheels. It’s definitive proof that less is more. So much more.




2013 Indian Chief Classic Key Features

Colors: Thunder Black, Indian Red

Timeless Indian Script tank design says everything there is to know.

Warbonnet front fender light is as uniquely Indian as it gets.

The flowing lines of classic valance long fenders take you back to a simpler time.

Black and polished engine with chrome covers provide a distinctive, yet powerful look.



2013 Indian Chief Classic - USA Specifications/Technical Details
US MSRP Price: $26,499* USD


Engine
Engine Type
Power Plus, Air-Cooled
Displacement
105 Cubic Inches
Bore x Stroke
3.966" x 4.25"
Compression Ratio
9 to 1
Fuel System
Closed Loop Sequential Port Fuel Injection


Drivechain
Primary Drive
Chain
Gearbox
Six Speed
Gear Ratio (overall)
1st
3.77:1
2nd
2.56:1
3rd
1.87:1
4th
1.44:1
5th
1.15:1
6th
1:1
Final Drive
Belt


Chassis
Frame
High tensile steel
Suspension/Front
Dia. 41 mm/Travel 4.25"
Suspension/Rear
Single shock/Travel 2.90"
Brakes/Front
Dual Caliper w/Floating Rotors
Brakes/Rear
Single Caliper Floating Rotor
Tires/Front
130/90-16 Black
Tires/Rear
150/80-16 Black
Wheels
Wire spoked
Exhaust System
Two into one Stainless Steel


Dimensions
Length
100.5"
Width
40.5"
Height
50.5"
Seat Height
27.25"
Wheelbase
68.4"
Dry Weight
728 lbs
GVWR
1220 lbs
Rake/Trail
34°/5.92"


Electrical & Instruments
Analog speedometer & multi-function digital display
Charging System
42 Amps
Lamps
Tear drop head lamp, fender light

Color
Thunder Black w/silver script; Indian Red w/gold script

Standard Equipment
Long Fenders; Solo Seat w/ Passenger Pillion

Pricing
$26,499

Warranty
2 Years


More photos and information: http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/motorcyc ... lassic.htm
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by totalmotorcycle » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:32 pm

Get excited! For 2013 we are making EVERY VOTE COUNT with our new Total Motorcycle Cool Wall standings!

Here's how we are improving our math. Every time you vote Awesome you are giving the bike 3 points. Cool gives 2 points, Uncool gives 1, and Fail gives zero. At the end of the voting week we will mulitply the number of votes in each category by the points for that category and then derive an average voting number, out of 3, for that bike. Finally, we will then normalize this average voting number against the maximum possible of 3 to give the bike a standing from 0 to 100. (Zero would mean 100% Fail votes while 100 would mean 100% Awesome votes.)

The standardization of all bikes to a scale of 0 to 100 will now give the opportunity to rank the entire year's list of bikes for the year. And best of all, it allows each and every vote to have meaning to the tally.

Here's an example:
Awesome: 8 votes x 3 points = 24 points
Cool: 12 votes x 2 points = 24 points
Uncool: 3 votes x 1 point = 3 points
Fail: 2 votes x 0 points = 0 points
Sum total: 51 points
Total number of votes: 25
Average points per vote: 51/25 = 2.04
Standardized to a maximum of 3 points: 2.04/3 x 100 = 68
...Therefore, this bike ranks a Coolwall Factor of 68!

Yeah, we know, the math looks a bit complicated, so if you don't care to figure it out then just remember - EVERY VOTE COUNTS - so get voting!
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by Johnj » Fri Jan 04, 2013 2:47 pm

Ugh...Polaris had a chance to make a splash in the motorcycle field by reinventing Indian. They could have produced sport models made with Rotax engines and really made some good bikes. Instead they make a Harley wannabe. They couldn't get enough sales from this machine to keep it in business and that's how Polaris ended up with it. I'm disappointed again.
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by JackoftheGreen » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:13 pm

For everyone who called the Raider gawdy, I submit for your consideration the Indian Chief.

This is what gawdy looks like on a cruiser. I love how the PR department has the audacity to pen the line 'less is more' when describing this parade float. That front fender is a Mississippi Waterfall if I've ever seen one, and if that's not enough they added a little chrome nubbin to the top and a chrome accent! Now you just need to wire up some LED accent lights to the underside of the fender, and voila'! Mobile disco! You could even make it flash...

Then the over-the-top tubby rear fender, and what's with the aprons on the saddle? Why not wrap the handlebars in leather and make the guys on the sales floor call them reigns? Hey guys, it's not actually a horse!

Top it all off with a $30,000 price tag? Fail.

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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by BobK » Fri Jan 04, 2013 4:40 pm

It's not awful, but it doesn't do anything for me.

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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by ceemes » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:29 pm

Sorry Mike, but that is overly complicated and needless....to better reflect a bikes status would be to add a Meh option....and then the option with the most votes wins.
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by HYPERR » Fri Jan 04, 2013 6:45 pm

totalmotorcycle wrote:
Here's an example:
Awesome: 8 votes x 3 points = 24 points
Cool: 12 votes x 2 points = 24 points
Uncool: 3 votes x 1 point = 3 points
Fail: 2 votes x 0 points = 0 points
Sum total: 51 points
Total number of votes: 25
Average points per vote: 51/25 = 2.04
Standardized to a maximum of 3 points: 2.04/3 x 100 = 68
...Therefore, this bike ranks a Coolwall Factor of 68!

Yeah, we know, the math looks a bit complicated, so if you don't care to figure it out then just remember - EVERY VOTE COUNTS - so get voting!
Definitely moving in the right direction. :kicking:

However there are some flaws IMO. Under this 3 point max system normalized to a scale of 100, a cool rating results in a score of 67. Since a score of 67 out of a 100 is a pretty poor score in most people's eyes, it is not really indicative of a cool rating. Like ceemes says, you need a meh option.
ceemes wrote:Sorry Mike, but that is overly complicated and needless....to better reflect a bikes status would be to add a Meh option....and then the option with the most votes wins.

What I would do is to award these points...

Awesome: 4
Cool: 3
Meh: 2
Uncool: 1
Fail: 0

And just average it out and let it be at that. No need to "normalize" to a scale of 100 as the result of this point system is very easy to relate; actually the same as the Grade Point Average used in the US.
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by montanalifter » Fri Jan 04, 2013 7:27 pm

I voted cool for the bike, but the price is uncool. I feel this way on a lot of these bikes.

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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by jstark47 » Fri Jan 04, 2013 10:14 pm

OK, so this really still a Gilroy/Kings Mountain Indian, now produced by Polaris, I'm thinking? Like the Kings Mountain bikes, has a real problem with price/value: too much price for what you get. If I wanted "bare essentials" I could go get a Softail Deluxe and save about 10 grand. Hopefully Polaris can do something about breaking Indian out of the "overpriced Harley clone" mode when they start totally redesigning these bikes for ...... 2014??

In the meantime, Fail.


BTW Mike, kudos on the new scoring system. May not be perfect but it's step in the right direction.
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by totalmotorcycle » Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:03 pm

Indian (Polaris) just sent out a press release today which included the following content. I thought it was relevant to our Cool Wall bike today:
"We are working hard designing and building the new Indian Motorcycle, but we knew it was important to honor and celebrate the long and proud heritage of Indian Motorcycle, and the Kings Mountain era played a key role in that continuing history," said Steve Menneto, Vice President of Motorcycles at parent company Polaris Industries. "When we acquired the Indian Motorcycle brand in 2011, our strategy was to retain the existing design, quality and high level of detail for which Indian Motorcycle has always been known, while making significant detail improvements in order to satisfy the continued demand from Indian Motorcycle dealers. The Final Edition is an acknowledgement of our gratitude to the team at Kings Mountain for sustaining the Indian Motorcycle story and its heritage as America's original motorcycle brand."

The Kings Mountain, North Carolina assembly line was transitioned to Polaris' Spirit Lake, Iowa production facility in 2011. The line was transported and returned to full operation in an astounding eight weeks, and continued to produce new units for the Indian Motorcycle dealer base. The state-of-the-art Spirit Lake plant also manufactures Polaris Rangers and Victory Motorcycles, though each brand is built on its own dedicated assembly line.
Full release here: viewtopic.php?f=13&t=46411
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by totalmotorcycle » Fri Jan 04, 2013 11:28 pm

Re: New Voting System

As always, thanks so much for your comments and feedback. This was quite the headache to think about, hash out and come up with and I'm glad to hear you're liking it better than the old system. The new system allows us to maintain the original voting categories, which means you are left to decide whether you like or dislike the bike with no option for a middle ground (this is the intention of the Cool Wall). Instead the new system only changes the way the bikes score and rank at the end of each week.

The reason to normalise out of 100 is to give breathing room to the scale. I was trying to avoid having bikes at 2.77, 2.89 and instead have them land at 69 and 72. It's just easier to visualise the value, especially when they will all be in a list at the end of the year. :D

While I can't please everyone (and you know I do try :mrgreen: ) and the new math is horribly complex (and I'm the one that has to calculate it every week... hahaha) the new system really does allow for all the votes to count.

Let's try it for a bit and see how it works out. :D

Mike
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by sapaul » Sat Jan 05, 2013 3:40 am

Blurgh
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by JackoftheGreen » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:28 am

I didn't mention it in my first post, but I wanted to add my two cents to the new rating system -- it's awesome. I know that I personally have voted 'out of true' in order to help tip the vote over or the "Cool/Uncool" fulcrum, so it's nice to know that if I think a bike really is Awesome, or a Fail, or whatever, I can cast that vote and have it truly effect the final outcome.

I agree that it creates some dissonance with numbers in the 60's coming out as "Cool", but it's going to be naturally weighted towards low numbers since Fail comes out a 0. And besides, there's been a lot of bikes that I consider "Cool" but wouldn't ride myself -- a 67 on a scale of 100 serves that sentiment just fine. Mike, thanx for all the hard work. Will you need any help going back and converting previous rankings?

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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by TnT » Sat Jan 05, 2013 4:25 pm

I really wanted this to be so cool, it's a real disappointment.

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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by ceemes » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:54 am

Mike,

While I generally like the idea of assigning values to the votes, I have been crunching the numbers and believe that the system you have adopted is unintentionally unfairly biased towards the cool/awesome categories and basically discounts the fail category. (Note: Calculations were done using the actual vote count during the time of this post and are subject to change as voting proceeds)

Using a spreadsheet, I plugged in the number using your current model and here are the results.

Image

As you can see, using the current model, this bike scores 58% of the possible points, thereby putting it firmly in the Cool section even though the majority of the voters feel it is either uncool or a fail. Using the old first past the post or simple majority system of the past, this bike would be rated Uncool.

However, I think with a bit of tweaking we can address this imbalance by simply changing the weighting system as follows:

Image

By assigning negative values to the uncool and fail categories, we can achieve more accurate analysis of the voting. As we can see from the example, some votes cancel out other, leaving a true score which shows that this bike actually has a negative acceptance rating of -42.53% that would place it firmly in the uncool category. This better reflects the actual votes cast by the members here, although it also discounts that more actual votes for fail have been cast.

For scoring purposes, I propose the following based on percentage of potential point scored:

Awesome: 51% to 100%
Cool: 1% to 50%
Uncool: -1% to -50%
Fail: -51% to -100%

If you like, I can send you my spreadsheet, all you need to do is plug in the votes and it will do all the work for you.

Chris.
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by JackoftheGreen » Sun Jan 06, 2013 5:07 pm

Uh...what he said. :thumbsup:

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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by Grey Thumper » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:05 pm

First of all, I give an awesome vote on the new scoring system! I'm pretty sucky at math though, so all the metric/statistical flaws that have been pointed out are a load of gobbledygook to me. But I really appreciate any and all improvements on the site.

Regarding the bike, it's a big fat fail. Just uninteresting, overpriced, and irrelevant to where most motorcycle markets/consumers are at.

I really think if someone wants to revive a brand, it wouldn't hurt to copy what John Bloor did with Triumph. They relaunched the brand with competitive, contemporary bikes like the Daytona, Trident and Trophy. They built their rep with distinctly-engineered triples (and eventually parallel twins as well). It was only later on that they capitalized on their heritage with retro designs like the Thunderbird, Bonneville, and Thruxton. I don't think you can build a modern motorcycling brand with just an exercise in fashion/styling, retro or otherwise.
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by Hanson » Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:41 pm

ceemes wrote:Mike,

While I generally like the idea of assigning values to the votes, I have been crunching the numbers and believe that the system you have adopted is unintentionally unfairly biased towards the cool/awesome categories and basically discounts the fail category. (Note: Calculations were done using the actual vote count during the time of this post and are subject to change as voting proceeds)

Using a spreadsheet, I plugged in the number using your current model and here are the results.

Image

As you can see, using the current model, this bike scores 58% of the possible points, thereby putting it firmly in the Cool section even though the majority of the voters feel it is either uncool or a fail. Using the old first past the post or simple majority system of the past, this bike would be rated Uncool.

However, I think with a bit of tweaking we can address this imbalance by simply changing the weighting system as follows:

Image

By assigning negative values to the uncool and fail categories, we can achieve more accurate analysis of the voting. As we can see from the example, some votes cancel out other, leaving a true score which shows that this bike actually has a negative acceptance rating of -42.53% that would place it firmly in the uncool category. This better reflects the actual votes cast by the members here, although it also discounts that more actual votes for fail have been cast.

For scoring purposes, I propose the following based on percentage of potential point scored:

Awesome: 51% to 100%
Cool: 1% to 50%
Uncool: -1% to -50%
Fail: -51% to -100%

If you like, I can send you my spreadsheet, all you need to do is plug in the votes and it will do all the work for you.

Chris.
All Mike needs is the average vote and then convert that from a scale of 0 to 3 to a scale of 0 to 100 ( a percentage). In your example this number is 40.5797101449 (Uncool)

This scale can easily be divided into 4 mnemonic categories, not dissimilar to letter grades at university:

[ 00, 25 ) : Fail
[ 25, 50 ) : Uncool
[ 50, 75 ) : Cool
[ 75, 100 ]: Awesome

Easy and no confusion and the number provides finer granularity when comparing bikes within the same category.

I think your error is in your "Weighted Vote Total" as a percentage of your "Total Possible Vote" instead of simply taking 28/69 * 100 which is mathematically exactly the same as Mikes method.

Consider what you did:

Weighted Average Vote = 28/23 = 1.21739...
Weighted Vote value = 28/23 * 100/3 = 40.5797...
Total possible vote = 3*23 = 69
Percentage of total possible vote = 40.5791 / 69 * 100 = 58.81%

When we substitute we find out what is going on:
( 28/23 * 100/3 ) / ( 3*23 ) * 100 = 58.811741

The numerator can be expressed as ( ( 28*100 ) / ( 3*23 ) ) and we can now note that the term ( 3*23 ) appears twice. That is in your calculation the total possible value of 69 is used twice because you are taking a percentage of a percentage which is why 100 appears twice as well as the maximum possible vote (3*23):
( 28 * 100**2 ) / ( 3*23 )**2 = 280000 / 69**2 = 28000 / 4761 = 58.81117 = Cool.

I think Mike has it right with:
( 28/23 )/3 * 100 = 28/69 * 100 = 40.5797% = Uncool.

As to the Indian, I vote uncool, but Awesome for Mike's new methodology.
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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by JackoftheGreen » Mon Jan 07, 2013 5:21 pm

Yo, what's with all this learnin'?!

You two doods should just race, whoever wins gets to pick the math for the new rating system, and a kiss from the other one's ol' lady.

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Re: This week: 2013 Indian Chief Classic: Vote Now

Unread post by jstark47 » Mon Jan 07, 2013 7:02 pm

Grey Thumper wrote:I really think if someone wants to revive a brand, it wouldn't hurt to copy what John Bloor did with Triumph.......I don't think you can build a modern motorcycling brand with just an exercise in fashion/styling, retro or otherwise.
I don't know if John Bloor and Triumph are the only way to do it, but for sure, the various attempts to revive Indian are a lesson in what NOT to do!


JackoftheGreen wrote:Yo, what's with all this learnin'?!
You're right about that, it's gettin' heavy in here!! I didn't come here fer no eddy-macation, gol-durn it!! :smartass:
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