There may be hope for us yet...

[jmillheiser]

Ahh the debate rages on.

Microevolution (as in evolution of individual species) is well estblished in fact and backed up by many studies. Macroevolution (extending evolution to describe the origin of life) is about as plusible as biblical creation as neither has any shred of proof.

Same goes for the "Big Bang" Hypothosis. Since nobody was present during the beginning of the universe nobody has ANY clue how it happened. Science has been able to calculate approximately WHEN the universe came into existance (around 16 billion years ago) but has no real idea HOW it came into existance.

Most Physicists will usually tell you that they have no clue if you ask them how the universe began.

Whats really suprising is there are people out there (a whole lot of them too) that actually believe that the world has only been around for 5766 years (the time since creation according to the Jewish calendar).

There is Acrheological not just Fossil evidence that contradicts this. The history of the ancient egyptians extends back almost 9000 years. There have been mesopotamian and ancient chinese sites found that date back around 10,000 years, there are places in India that have been inhabited for 8000 years and are still inhabited today.

[CNF2002]

Species differentiation occurs over a long period of time, you don't end up with one species birthing another. Take one species, 500 generations later they diverge into two seperate species, one unable to mate with the other. But generation #123 can still mate with #124, but generation #5 cannot mate with generation #450.

Im far from a scientist so I dont claim to be able to describe evolution down to genetic detail, but its not hard to grasp a basic understanding of the concept. People choose not to believe in evolution because it conflicts with their religious beliefs...they're just ignorant, usually making up wild "well this makes more sense" reasons why evolution isn't a valid theory. Just because you took a few science classes and evolution was beyond your logic (or, rather, beyond what your bible tells you), don't punish the rest of us for actually using deductive methods and reasoning to learn about humans and the environment.

Science isnt the enemy. Its really sad how many religious people NEED other people to believe too...if your personal beliefs aren't strong enough that you need everyone else to agree with them just to feel secure, you need to reaffirm your faith.

Meanwhile scientists will continue to research evolution and genetics and use it to create medicines and medical procedures that will probably one day save your life...they do it for the good of mankind, and they won't care when you thank God instead of them for it.

[ZooTech]

Whats really suprising is there are people out there (a whole lot of them too) that actually believe that the world has only been around for 5766 years (the time since creation according to the Jewish calendar).

There is Acrheological not just Fossil evidence that contradicts this. The history of the ancient egyptians extends back almost 9000 years. There have been mesopotamian and ancient chinese sites found that date back around 10,000 years, there are places in India that have been inhabited for 8000 years and are still inhabited today.

I don't know about 5766 years, but I do believe the earth was formed 10 to 15 thousand years ago. Nothing in my "crazy religion" requires me to estimate the age of the earth in the millions of years just so all the subsequent pieces of my theory fit.

Im far from a scientist so I dont claim to be able to describe evolution down to genetic detail, but its not hard to grasp a basic understanding of the concept. People choose not to believe in evolution because it conflicts with their religious beliefs...

So now you're just saying the opposite of what I said. People grasp onto evolution because God conflicts with the way they wish to live.

Just because you took a few science classes and evolution was beyond your logic

Don't even pretend to know the extent to which I have studied evolution. If you want to get personal and start the mud slingin', by all means. But don't be surprised by the results.

Science isnt the enemy.

Never said it was. There's so much scientific evidence for Creation it'd make your head spin. But people like you are so afraid of the truth you want to keep it out of schools. If "science isn't the enemy", what are you afraid of? After all, if evolution is backed by so much irrefutable evidence, it should knock Intelligent Design right outta the ring, right?

Its really sad how many religious people NEED other people to believe too...if your personal beliefs aren't strong enough that you need everyone else to agree with them just to feel secure, you need to reaffirm your faith.

I don't need you to believe anything. I'm simply defending my own views whenever I see them publicly mocked. And, if someone wants to know the truth along the way, that's just a bonus. You gotta remember something, CNF, I have nothing to lose here. If I'm wrong my fate is no worse than yours.

Meanwhile scientists will continue to research evolution and genetics and use it to create medicines and medical procedures that will probably one day save your life...they do it for the good of mankind, and they won't care when you thank God instead of them for it.

Now where'd I put that violin....

[scan]

I won't join in the debate, but I do love information.

So Zooman, please give me several scientific items that prove the creationist point of view. I don't want my head to spin (as you said might happen if you gave it all), so you don't have to quote me the whole book of scientific evidence that backs Adam and Eve, Noah and so on. Just throw a few bones out.

I think irrefutable evidence for any side of this debate is pretty tough to come by, but since there is so much to back creation, I'd like to hear about that.

And one more question, regarding the dinosaurs - do you regard them as being made up, incorrectly dated, or placed here to confuse man kind by Satan? I have actually heard all these arguements, but wonder what your conclusion is base on your educated resources.

Aw, shucks. I think I joined the debate.

[ZooTech]

And one more question, regarding the dinosaurs - do you regard them as being made up, incorrectly dated, or placed here to confuse man kind by Satan? I have actually heard all these arguements, but wonder what your conclusion is base on your educated resources.

Fair enough, Dave. But it's after midnight and I need to get to bed, so you'll have to wait on the first part until tomorrow.

As for the dinosaurs, of course they existed. They're even mentioned in the Bible. Incidentally, quite a few are still around...though we now call them lizards and rhinos and other such names. Before the flood the climate was different and longevity was a part of life. Some Bible figures were known to be hundreds of years old, though non-believers typically pull a Bill Clinton and say "Depends on what the meaning of the word 'year' is". So, anyway, dinosaurs walked the earth WITH mankind, not billions and billions (my best Ben Stein impression) of years before him.

[Sev]

The fossils we have are not actual bones anymore. They are what could essentially be called holes in mud filled with minerals that were native to the material they were embedded in.

The minerals in the bones, calciums and hydroxyapatite, get replaced, one by one, with the minerals in the sand. Due to the great pressure over top (from being buried), the lower levels of sediment get pressed together to form sedimentary rock, with the bones still in it. Eventually, millions of years pass by, and there is no organic material left in the bones, they are now solid rock, and are buried deep below the surface, incased in sedimentary rocks.

Of course if this process took a couple thousand years (like it would have to) to make a t-rex leg then it should be easy enough to prove. Find yourself a REALLY SMALL bone, we're talking smaller then the nail on your pinky. Put it in a box full of sand and a little water. Then put something really heavy (your truck) on top. We only need to replace a small amount of mineral now, so it should happen pretty quickly.

I'll let you keep me updated as to your progress in making rock... or a fossil for that matter.


Someone also skipped over my evolution post. Are we adding DNA to this fossil to make it differeny from all the other ones too?

[ronboskz650sr]

Here's a fish that didn't evolve...supposed extinct "with the dinosaurs" until sombody caught one in the 1930's. Bone for bone match with the fossils previously found.

You decide for yourself how this confirms/denies evolutionary theory, or the science behind it. This is a real fish. And a real blooper in "fossils prove evolution" science. BTW, science hasn't cared about fossils long enough to have the slightest clue how long it actually takes to make one. Just more guessing. Maybe it does only take 2000 years...who knows for sure?

http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjec ... tout.shtml

[Sev]

Apparently you missed the point of what Evolution is supposed to be.

It does not state that all animals will change.

It does not state that all plants will change.

It does not state that DNA is being added, subtracted, multpilied or divided.

It states that the specific individual within a species that is best suited to its environment will survive to pass on its DNA. Within a single species over a short period of time this is called Adaptation.

Over a greater time period this is called Evolution, in which the species as a whole changes into something different. If the habitat in which is lives warrents a change.

So, the fish you are talking about is in a relatively unchanging environment (deep ocean) meaning it does not need to change in order to survive. Mutant or variant examples of the species will die out because they are not suited to survival in the environment.

However, if the environment changes one of two things will happen:

1) All the fish will die
2) The ones that are different in some way (better able to resist cold for example) will live longer and are more likely to reproduce.


I don't see what's so difficult about all of this. Mother nature has proved itself to be infinately adaptable. Whether by the guiding hand of God, or pure genetic chance.

Either way, you can see it happen by looking at bacteria or viruses. Because they are single cells it happens more readily. Look at all the diseases wandering around that are just slightly different from year to year. Because they are simpler organisms it takes less time to happen.


Your link doesn't work because you pressed [enter] after you copied it in. Then closed your url brackets.

[ronboskz650sr]

My intent was to show a true documented flaw in the science of this particular case of "extinction." Simple existence of fossils doesn't prove extreme lengths of time or evolution, or extinction, or anything else. The fossil evidence of the coelacanthe would indicate millions and millions of years of no evolution whatsoever, during periods of changing predators, changing food sources...everything else supposedly evolving. How can it be both ways? To me, the fish survived the flood. It's a fish. It didn't evolve because it was created. It's just right as it is.

I still maintain evolution is a theory that cannot be proven, and I haven't missed the point at all. Do you think I wasn't taught evolution, too? You choose to believe it without positive proof. You just won't admit it. It's the same old argument you use to refute what I believe...without proof, but by faith. It's good enough for you and evolution, but grounds for argument against me and creation.

Lots of research has been done by both sides...but your side didn't even exist until 130 years ago or so. There is still no evidence at all of the intermediate stages of "evolution." There is no missing link found. Where are the rest of the fossils? Just before and after? How many actual full skeletons are there? Why are there gaps in the fossil record? Why does every culture have "dragon" drawings and legends? What set off the "big bang" you have to believe in to begin your evolutionary journey? What would have survived it? Will new civilization spring out of microscopic life as a result of Mt Saint Helens? That was a pretty big bang. Is anybody looking for the next few billion years to make sure?

Some scientists say they discovered human footprints in the same layer with dinosaurs at Paluxy river in Texas...others say they are dinosaur footprints that "eroded" to look like human ones. Why didn't the other footprints erode? Same layer, so what gives? Who is right? Nobody was looking for human footprints, but evolutionists sure went after them to discredit the find. Mt saint Helens deposited landscape changing layers in a few days and a new canyon from the runoff, over a period of a few weeks. Scientists were blown away by what they learned from that event. The right conditions can cause all kinds of changes in the planet, and we don't understand all of them, or how long they all might take given the right catalyst.

Evolutionary theory is full of holes...but at least it allows people to put their faith in man and science... that's really the point. No creator is required...no accountability to a creator...perfect. Until Evolution, people either believed in God or they didn't. Now there's a potential argument at every opportunity, thanks to evolutionary theory. I'll still argue in favor of God. I'm only writing in this thread because of the original post showing wishy-washiness by some other "believers" who evidently don't think evolution denies creation. I do.

BTW, how does evolutionary theory further genetic research and modern medicine? CNf2002...other people aren't ignorant just because they disagree with you. Obviously ridiculous is your opinion. There is no such thing as Too obviously, BTW. There is also no evidence of humans evolving from something else...and how would it help medicine if there was? After all, it would have taken millions of years and we need medical discovery now. The rate of genetic change would be so gradual it would be unusable during any generation the research was being done in or near. And the constant change would render any solutions unusable as we continuously "evolved" out of our current configuration if the changes were fast enough to document. Studying DNA for medicine doesn't require adherance to evolutionary theory. What has evolutionary theory really done for mankind..cable TV documentaries, and arguments? Oh and lots of research jobs funded by government grants in the quest for proof. Please enlighten on the constructive contribution of evolutionary theory to your life. How has it uplifted you or brought you through troubled times?

If you want to attack others beliefs, just stick to that. I don't "need you to believe." Hopefully you don't need me not to. You're wasting your time if you do. Bring a little research to the table and the discussion stays alot more interesting and friendly.

Perhaps I've proven nothing. If so, now would be a great time for the evolutionists to actually prove something. Answering my questions would go a long way toward proving it. If you can't actually prove evolution, though, you shouldn't engage in labeling or insults aimed at those who won't believe it.

[CNF2002]

Now where'd I put that violin....

Well...ya reap all the benefits of science...don't see why you hate it so much. Im sure you've studied evolution a LOT, but you lack one of those important things that scientists strive for - objectivity. When you ask a question that you're SURE you already know the answer to, guess what your answer will probably be.

But, this thread was about science/religion finding common ground wasn't it? This is entirely off-topic.