Lean Angle

[Gunslinger]

Just burn past any Highway Patrol cruiser going about a buck ten, they will provide excellent footage for you at the arraignment.

Actually when you first mentioned the indicator I thought it was a great idea until others that are smarter than me pointed out some (now obvious) flaws. I think you are like me in that you just need more practice. Curves are my biggest challenge especially the decreasing radius ones. Pucker factor is very high for me on those types.

[dr_bar]

Don't trust your speedo to be accurate either. Almost every Japanese bike has a definite problem with the speedo. Mine reads approx 5 - 10% higher than actual speed. This may be why you're being tail-gated on the off ramp even though you believe you're doing the suggested speed. If you have access to a GPS, check it out. Also, there is a product called a "Speedo-Healer" or something to that effect and it can solve the speedo problem when set up right...

[Nalian]

I found out something , along time ago. I you just watch where you want to go you will lean as much as you need to for the turn and will never think about how much you are leaning.

In some turns I am very good with this. I find though, that in some ramps you can't see straight-line distance to where you are supposed to be in the curve.

I also find that sometimes I'll consciously have to force myself to look in the appropriate place and then it gets easier to get through that specific turn.

So, definitely an excellent point.

At least I don't look down much anymore. Look down, go down!

RhadamYgg

Make your eyes follow the apex whenever possible. That's the voice that's always going in my head when I'm riding anything with curves - chase the apex.

Of course some days I am all over the place and have to yell that in my head, others everything just falls into place. I'm finding more often than not I have the latter, these days, but I think that's more about relaxing and comfort with the bike than anything else.

[RhadamYgg]

When I ride the B-King I sit in a "very" standard position, but my nuts are scooched up right in to the gas tank. So, I can't move forward any further.

You don't necessarily need to move any further forward. If you just reposition your body sideways so the centerline of your mass from the waist up is inside the centerline of the bike's mass, you'll achieve a very beneficial weight redistribution. Everything we write about shoulder position, arm position, etc, is really about facilitating a shift of your mass off the centerline of the bike's mass and to the inside. This buys you a bunch of benefits including "conservation of lean angle" - ability to turn sharper without leaning the bike so much.

It needs to be accompanied by a "loose" position on the bike - all your body joints flexible and not locked, and by keeping your eyes UP and on the corner exit. Once you get this down, you'll be going through curves 15 mph faster than you used to, but it will seem slower..... and you'll be wondering why you ever thought those curves were sharp.

I'm going to have to read your post a couple of times. I'm not sure how it translates in the real world on the bike. I'm loose, though. I'm getting better at looking out for the end of the turn.

It sounds like you are saying I should lean my body left, in a left turn, in an angle more towards the ground than the rest of the bike.

RhadamYgg

[sapaul]

Just an observation.

I got back on big road bikes 8 years ago after riding Trials for 20 years.

I have learned more and am still learning whilst also teaching in this last 8 years than I knew in the years before.

When we teach, we find

the old biker is a pain in the "O Ring" because he won't learn (generally)

The younger faster riders learn the most and become better safer riders (generally)

Lady riders and accountant types are the most painful as they insist on analysing everything.

The result of this is that the old biker rides along doing most things wrong but could not give a "poo poo" and when some thing goes wrong that requires his quick reaction, he has no problem. He has been there and done that and does not panic, he just handles it. The he goes to the pub and tells his mates how close it was and how good a rider he is to have avoided it.

The young riders take pride in their skills and avoid all the "poo poo" in the first place. If something does happen he handles it with aplomb. He/she is so skilled that their heads no longer need to think, everything happens automatically.

The analytical types are the ones that have a huge problem. Your heads are so full of rubbish that you have no computing power left when it comes to a panic situation. You panic because your brains are overloaded.
You cannot become one with the bike as you always will find some fault or reason as to why this or that is not right.

Some times you just have to let go of all the techie stuff and just feel that ride, trust your bike and your abilities and learn one baby step at a time.

leave some room in your head for when you need it. You then get to be an old biker and get to go to the pub.

[jstark47]

It sounds like you are saying I should lean my body left, in a left turn, in an angle more towards the ground than the rest of the bike.

Yes, to begin, lean your body from your waist up toward the inside. If you're turning left, lean your upper body to the left. If you can imagine a line through the center of the bike and a line from your waist through your head, get you body's line to the inside (i.e. left) of the bike's line. Dropping your inside shoulder helps. I've heard it described as try to touch your the mirror with your shoulder (if you're turning left, this is your left shoulder & left mirror) while keeping your eyes up - obviously a phsyical impossibility, but it helps get the right body image in my brain.

Countersteering is still your primary steering input, the weight shift makes the countersteering even more powerful. You can actually turn too tightly if not careful!

[RhadamYgg]

Just burn past any Highway Patrol cruiser going about a buck ten, they will provide excellent footage for you at the arraignment.

Actually when you first mentioned the indicator I thought it was a great idea until others that are smarter than me pointed out some (now obvious) flaws. I think you are like me in that you just need more practice. Curves are my biggest challenge especially the decreasing radius ones. Pucker factor is very high for me on those types.

I still think there might be a way to do it, but it would involve technology that's out of our reach at the moment. A lean indicator with a rf connection to a HUD in the helmet. That way you could know your angle and look where you need to be going.

But it would still be only 1 piece of information out of many needed to properly navigate any difficult turn.

RhadamYgg

[king robb]

just get with an experienced rider you trust and follow him on twisties...mimic his movements. start slow and build up. Before you know it you will be going way faster and leaning way further than you currently think you want to.

Also, body surfing is a skill that you only need if:
A) you like to show off how bold you are in turns
B) you intend on racing.

If you are always going the posted speed limit, there is seldom a need to lean more than 15 degrees.

I agree with most of what has been posted. Quit thinking about it so much and just ride. I mean do you have to know how much flour is in a chocolate chip cookie to enjoy it?

[mydlyfkryzis]

Just burn past any Highway Patrol cruiser going about a buck ten, they will provide excellent footage for you at the arraignment.

Actually when you first mentioned the indicator I thought it was a great idea until others that are smarter than me pointed out some (now obvious) flaws. I think you are like me in that you just need more practice. Curves are my biggest challenge especially the decreasing radius ones. Pucker factor is very high for me on those types.

I still think there might be a way to do it, but it would involve technology that's out of our reach at the moment. A lean indicator with a rf connection to a HUD in the helmet. That way you could know your angle and look where you need to be going.

But it would still be only 1 piece of information out of many needed to properly navigate any difficult turn.

RhadamYgg

Lean angle is a function of physics. You can't not lean, the angle is determined by your speed, center of gravity, and turn radius. The only angle that is a problem is the one where the hard parts of your bike hit the ground.
Knowing your lean angle may be an interesting piece of information, but you can't manually change it without changing your speed, turn radius and center of gravity. There is one angle for each of the combination's that the bike finds through physics.

For instance, you come to a curve and say to yourself, "I'll take this at a 20 degree angle." The angle that you actually use is automatically found by the bike. You can spped up, slow down, turn sharper, turn less, or shift your body position. that's it. You can't keep the bike from leaning, only from turning. At a given, fixed speed, and you centered on the bike, the lean angle is strictly turn radius.

You don't turn by leaning the bike. Turning causes the bike to lean. You can lean the bike without turning (shift your weight over to one side as far as possible, the bike will lean to the other side, but you can still go in a straight path). But you cannot turn without the bike finding it's proper angle on it's own. The turn causes the lean.

You need to work on fixing the driver. A lean indicator will not tell you the information you need to ride properly. Practice, driving/riding courses, reading will improve your capabilities.

If you are not dragging hard parts, you are not leaning too far. Get past that, and learn to ride better.

[RhadamYgg]

It sounds like you are saying I should lean my body left, in a left turn, in an angle more towards the ground than the rest of the bike.

Yes, to begin, lean your body from your waist up toward the inside. If you're turning left, lean your upper body to the left. If you can imagine a line through the center of the bike and a line from your waist through your head, get you body's line to the inside (i.e. left) of the bike's line. Dropping your inside shoulder helps. I've heard it described as try to touch your the mirror with your shoulder (if you're turning left, this is your left shoulder & left mirror) while keeping your eyes up - obviously a phsyical impossibility, but it helps get the right body image in my brain.

Countersteering is still your primary steering input, the weight shift makes the countersteering even more powerful. You can actually turn too tightly if not careful!

Maybe I'm doing something right then, because there have been a couple of turns that I've come close to cutting short and I had to lay off a bit.

RhadamYgg