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Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:47 pm
by storysunfolding
StillTry'n wrote:I lied. I can't resist getting more input.
good
I remember my MFS class stressing to stay off the front brake unless you are upright and going straight?
Great advice for a beginner. We all learn motor movements teh same. We start with gross movements (on/off) then we refine those to more precise movements (25%,50%, 75% etc). You should always use both brakes (hopefully your BRC covered that). However when turning at slow speeds overapplying the front brake can quickly cause the bike to tip over. Here until you get more proficient with the front you may choose just to use the rear brake.

Do you remember the stopping in a turn video from your class? It gave two means to stop in a turn. The first and best is straighten and THEN brake. The second way start braking while straightening but be careful not to overwhelm available traction

So....before I go out and get hammered on the bends: tell me one more time, please. I should maybe drop a gear...use the front brake....and then throttle out to the exit?
Until you get instruction in a more advanced technique you should follow what you learned in the BRC. Get all your slowing done before the turn including any downshifts you need; look through the turn; press to initiate your lean; roll on the throttle smoothly evenly and constantly through the remainder of the turn. Use an outside inside outside path of travel as appropriate and try not to turn in too soon.
have been on the rear (I call it "dragging" the rear) and I should use both: but especially the front?
You should always use both brakes. It's a good habit and good form. However your front brake supplies as little as 70% of your stopping power. If I were to use a brake, I'd use the most powerful one.

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:54 pm
by StillTry'n
You should always use both brakes. It's a good habit and good form. However your front brake supplies as little as 70% of your stopping power. If I were to use a brake, I'd use the most powerful one.
story: reread your quote. "As little as 70%, I'd use the most powerful one". 70% is way more than a little.

OK, here are the real facts. I am riding (my very first ride) a Maxiscooter 650cc Suzuki. It weighs in at around 610 pounds and goes up to 110 mph. The weight of this thing is real intimidating at slow speed.

I am now moving up to buying a 2010 Ducati Monster 696 with ABS.

I just want to know what to do if I get myself "overcooked" into a turn.

And you have been very helpful.

I have been in the dark about the front brake!

Dan

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:01 pm
by storysunfolding
On most bikes it provides more than 70%. I stand by my statement :laughing:

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:03 pm
by storysunfolding
Find and take a Lee Parks Total Control class. You'll love it combined with that monster. btw :thumbsup:

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:35 pm
by jmillheiser
Add more steering input to get the bike over more, get your weight to the inside, and feed in a little trail braking if the front end starts to push. Maintain steady throttle and if your trail braking just ease off a tad, do not completely shut down the throttle. If pegs start scraping stay in it until your out of the turn.

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:20 pm
by jstark47
Dan- You have a Burgie 650? Heavy for sure, but isn't the CoG real low? That should work to your advantage leaning the critter. We used to have a Reflex, I would work up to some pretty good lean angles going around corners (i.e. moderate speed turns). Harder to shift weight on a maxiscoot though - no pegs to weight and no tank to push on. Can still be done, just not to the same degree as on a regular motorcycle.

Does the Burgman have linked brakes?

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:22 am
by StillTry'n
jstark

You know my Suzuki dealer doesn't even know for sure if the Burgman has linked brakes. I'm gonna say no on that.

Yes real low CoG for sure which makes this "training bike" easy to get the feel of riding. A killer for noobs in slow turning.

But the input a rider should give to this is probably the same on most bikes when entering a turn hot and trying to come out in one piece.

Story and everyone has been spot on with responses. Mainly I need to stick to what I learned as a beginner and gradually advance to more experienced riding technique through class instruction.

I'm moving to the Ducati in the spring and I know that I will ride that bike just fine if I keep doing what I'm doing......gradually!

Story....I do indeed use both brakes when stopping evey time. But until now I have only used the rear in the turns. But then again my speed in those turns has not been anything drastic. I am going to try both brakes in the turns: gently!

Thank You All

Dan :lol:

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:58 am
by Wrider
Hey, just went to the Suzuki dealer website and looked at the schematics for your Burgman. You don't have a linked braking system, both front and rear are independent systems.
Thought it'd be useful for you to know! :mrgreen:

Posted: Thu Nov 19, 2009 3:11 pm
by StillTry'n
wrider

Correct!

ABS though on this bike, which I'm also getting on the Monster 696 in '10. That is a new option on the Ducati for the 696.

Again....this thread has been most educational for a new rider!

And thank you all for hitting the keyboard for me.

Dan

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:18 pm
by BRUMBEAR
Time to check the package never brake throttle only I only braked once last year in a turn was covering the front brake and hit a pothole accidently pulled it PUCKER FACTOR 10. Seriously though I will usually hold my line and push her through even though your body is screaming to bail don't your machine will make it . If not I would rather low side than high side anyday

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:20 pm
by NORTY
Front brake, rear brake, throttle down, "pin it", change gear whilst in turn, "trail" braking, "loading the front," using the rear to "settle" the front. These are all based on one thing~ available friction between the tire and the road surface. The street isn't the best place to discover "threshold friction." Riding an offroad bike were friction is mostly poor at best is good training, when it comes to "what to do vs. what NOT to do."

Unfortunately, converting from dirt to street, much higher friction capabilities are experienced, so this is hardly effective, but it's the best training currently.During your riding "career", you'll have surprises. It's these "surprises" that you learn to deal with and use that knowledge for future reference. I guess you just have to rely on "experience" from past saves. The less "saves" you have to make, the better rider you are.

Entering a turn "too hot" is a result of one thing: EGO.
A rider unfamiliar with a turn should always hold back. A rider should never ride at more than 40% on the street, IMHO. The street is used to get somewhere. Use the track for riding @ > 40%.

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 3:37 pm
by StillTry'n
Norty

Pretty much sums it up. Learn on the dirt, before you get on the street. Not an option in my case.

Don't get to hot to begin with, Dan. Roadway conditions will decide if I am going to crash if I have gone "ego".

And to everybody else I have learned this: hold my line and stay on the throttle....trust my bike to find the exit.

But mostly: ride within my limits.

I appreciate everybody's input on this thread.

Dan

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 5:24 pm
by BRUMBEAR
I do not agree that dirt riding and street riding are similar in any way. I road trail enduro and raced motocross when I was young and everything is completely different.
dirt first of all has no CAGERS
dirt you don't use mirrors often if at all
Street feet in always unless your at a near standstill
Street hardly use reaer brakes
morning conditions in canopy "don't hit the lines"
Standing while you street ride unless your squiding or "shaking it out" aint a real good idea either
Dirt 50% of the time or better your standing.
I do agree the motocycle is a similar machine though thats kind of where it ends for me but each to there own I'm no kill joy!!!

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Thu Mar 04, 2010 6:07 pm
by StillTry'n
Brumbear

I'll disagree: in that a biker who started in the dirt will have a lot more ability on the street than a noobie (like myself) who has only ridden street bikes.

You are 100% correct that "conditions" on the street are 180 degrees opposed to motocross: but the "feel of the bike" is what I am missing that young dirt bikers have from the very beginning. Cagers and mirrors are not where I was coming from.

This post was about going.... "too hot into a turn".

If I had started out on a dirt bike many years ago I would not have had to ask this question.

The elite of super sport racers today all started in the dirt. It is hard for me to imagine that an experienced dirt biker cannot ride a street bike. Again...I am not talking cagers and mirrors and hitting apexes here, I am talking handling and braking.

I could be wrong, Brumbear, and I want you to please correct me if you feel I am. Your thoughts are most helpful.

Dan

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 4:07 am
by sapaul
If I may chip in with the do not's

Panic, this will lead to survival instincts kicking in and then it's all down to luck or God.

Do anything in a sharp or uncontrolled manner, gearing down should only be done if there is adequate room before the apex or as you exit under power. The reason is that in the corner your chassis is under load and taut, slacken off as in a clutch change and the chassis loses stability

Fight the lean, you must counter steer and position your body correctly, fighting against the lean will not assist the bike around the corner.

Keep all body parts on the bike, do not stick legs out.

Do not stiffen body or lock elbows, this will restrict the movement of the bike, the inputs from your body will be slow and exaggerated

Throttle off, there is a huge difference between "feathering" which is neutral between power on and power off and powering off. Snapping the throttle to the off position will stop fuel feed and again the chassis will lose all stability

look at your crash site, "Look There Go There" Keep looking ahead at where you want to be.

Grab brakes, front or back. Whichever you use has to be slow and smooth, no sudden inputs. This is bike and rider dependent. An example VFR 800 6th gen, integrated braking system. Back brake only will give you 70% on the back and 30% on the front. Front brake only will give you 70% front and 30 back

Scream

Nip buttocks too hard, this causes cramps in your thighs and severe stomach ache, makes riding difficult as well as many hours of underwear removal and may need surgery

The hardest thing I have to teach is to throttle on in this type of situation as all of your instincts are screaming at you to slow down. The above posts are from guys who have experienced this. Listen to them.

I am an advocate of "The Pace" google it for more info, but the basic premise is that all corners should have a correct entry speed in order to ride them properly. Many people think I ride fast. The truth is I do not but have learned to corner correctly which leaves those that have not standing. Read "The pace"

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Fri Mar 05, 2010 7:42 am
by BRUMBEAR
I see I kind of meant that when I said motorcycles are similar. I started on the dirt a long time ago but let me please tell you dirt bike turning and street bike turning are completely different for me. Especially in motocross so coming in to hot must be reletive.
IE what happens in a motocross race if your to hot in the turn
slam the brakes to set the machine drop a gear and gun it while planting your leg to guide the machine.
in a street situation.
feather the front to set the bike if you can, twist your body countersteer with a hard input if you can get to the trail brake use it lightly IE right or left hander I opt not to touch the trail brake when you apex hold the line and throttle when possible.
The absolute thing that does not change for me is DO NOT PANIC!!!!!!!!!
One thing that helps me not panic is believe it or not having the right gear on. Knowing if I do go down my chances are much better of not getting road rash but that applies for both street and dirt equaly and that is just me.

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 10:57 am
by storysunfolding
BRUMBEAR wrote:feather the front to set the bike if you can, twist your body countersteer with a hard input if you can get to the trail brake use it lightly IE right or left hander I opt not to touch the trail brake when you apex hold the line and throttle when possible.
I'm not following what you're trying to get across here. Why are you twisting your body? Also trail braking is a technique, you're making it sound like it's a specific brake. Can you elaborate?

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:15 pm
by BRUMBEAR
Yeah I am pretty horrible with these confounded machines. ok I'll try
coming in to say the left hander at the end of the pocono east track straight for shyts and giggles,I feather the front brake to set my line once there I will let the bike go and run down and with my bike I am lucky I don't have to beat up the shifter just from 4th to 3rd hang my body off left elbow down chin over the hand grip butt off the seat is what I should say feat on the pegs at the balls left knee out weight shifted foward a strong input into the handlebars (countersteer) hit the Apex and ZOOM instant grin and E ticket at disney :D Hows that

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Sat Mar 06, 2010 5:01 pm
by BRUMBEAR
Yes the PACE is going to be p-touched and stuck on my airbox or tank cover so I don't act a fool that is a great article I read it every season when the riding gets going in earnest again thanks for bringing that up.

Re: Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 7:46 am
by dj biker
Being an Insurance Adjuster, I can safely state that most accidents that occur in a corner are due to the lack of courage of the rider. I have seen very few instances where the bike would actually not handle the curve at well over 20mph over the posted limit. Check out the bikes at Indy, they are dragging knees and still have traction. Most of the time, what happens is the rider loses courage in the turn, and simply refuses to lean the bike to the necessary angle to manipulate the curve and just runs off the road. There are knobs on your OEM footpegs and/or floorboards. These are for dragging on the ground in a tight turn and should indicate that you are near the limits of the bike. Until the pegs drag, lean that puppy over!

One important factor is to never attempt any of this on tires with less than 500 miles on them. Many accidents involve new tires and even very experienced riders. New tires take time to scuff in and wear off the factory coatings that protect the tires during storage, plus it takes time and heat to properly seat the tire on the rim. For 500 miles take it easy on new tires, especially in the curves, after that, LEAN THE BIKE, it will likely save your life.