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Too Hot in Turn

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:04 am
by StillTry'n
You have entered a long sweeping turn at too hot a speed.

You have to make a decision........NOW.

You have three choices, and two of them involve slowing (braking). Do you down shift or do you brake?

If neither why not?

Your third choice is to maintain this too fast speed (and you better be Rossi here) and hard counter steer to hold your line ....and pray you make the exit.

It's too late to go back and enter at the speed you should have for your experience.

So what do I (that's me) do......and most important of all, don't do?


Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:15 pm
by Wrider
Well that's pretty easy, you drop the clutch, break the rear tire loose, and drift through it like a supermoto...
Come on, gimme a challenging question! :laughing:

But seriously downshift and brake with the rear... If you brake with the front on anything but a BMW it will try to stand the bike up through the corner and you'll just screw it up anyway. Trust me... haha

Posted: Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:11 pm
by Tennif Shoe
drop a gear, and feed it more gas, you need to get to know the capabilities of your bike, ohhh and when you get done stop and get the seat uncrammed from your ***

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 6:14 pm
by storysunfolding
Press hard and maintain speed and she'll pull through every time. You are the limiting factor. The front wheel is responsible for roughly 60% of your cornering traction. It's also your most effective brake. Utilize it and you stand a good chance of pushing yourself over the threshold.

At the same time if you're going to stop then use your brakes. Downshifting isn't nearly as precise and you don't want to drastically destabilize the motorcycle.

Of course you could have taken a variety of on or track cornering classes ranging from a track day to a total control class so you have extra tools in your toolbox to deal with situations like this.

The real question is how on earth did you enter a long sweeper turn too fast? Those suckers can't sneak up on you.

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:09 pm
by jstark47
I agree with Story, more or less.

I've been known to trail brake pretty deep into a corner. And I sometimes downshift at corner entrance - but can't see downshifting between corner entrance and apex. I'd have to do it exactly right, get the power back on completely smoothly... and I probably wouldn't. Too much chance of really upsetting the suspension doing that.

So I'll take my chances pushing it through. Get my weight waaayy down and waaay over. Relax everything else, get that inside elbow down and in, drop that shoulder, keep my eyesight waaaay up and out past the apex.... and push it through, baby, push it through. I'll take my chance with the lowside. Better that than brake too much, stand it up, run wide and smack into some solid object at God knows what speed.

Posted: Tue Nov 17, 2009 9:54 pm
by storysunfolding
jstark47 wrote:I agree with Story, more or less.

I've been known to trail brake pretty deep into a corner.
oh yeah. Trail brake to the apex. Load the front suspension for more cornering traction and sharper turn in then throttle out from the apex

going back to the old race saying "when in doubt throttle out"

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:47 am
by StillTry'n
Thanks guys.....

Personally, I've got a lot of miles to go before I get this down without going down.

Unless I want to straighten up and stop in a turn I'm off the front brake: that's all I'm almost sure of.

Story: you're right about getting into a long sweeper too hot. I really meant the opposite and hitting something much tighter and unexpected.

Mostly I'm just pretty much dragging the rear brake and praying.

Yeah....."throttle out", I know.

Dan :roll: :roll:

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:30 am
by storysunfolding
Why are you dragging the rear?

My answer is the same for any type of turn

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:47 am
by StillTry'n

Help me (noob) out here, Buddy.

Explain in detail the difference in "dragging the rear" and "trail braking".

As long as I survive my too hot entrance I'm "sorta" OK....but maybe I need to learn a bit of the terminology, here, too.



Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:03 am
by koji52
Correct me if I'm wrong, but trail braking is the act of applying front brake to "push" the front tire into the asphalt, and gradually letting go of the brake as you approach the apex and then throttling out. Obviously, there's some risk in new riders trying this out on the street as you're liable to stand the bike up in the middle of a turn.

Dragging the rear is applying rear brake pressure (in any scenario, i guess). The risk here is lock-up in the rear and a likely low-side dump if you're not completely straight.

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:59 am
by jstark47
Koji is right. Trail braking is generally done with the front brake.

I'm amazed at the number of arguments on internet motorcycle forums about rear brakes that don't account for the difference in motorcycle type. The relative power and effectiveness of rear brakes and their correct use can vary a lot between cruisers at one extreme and supersport bikes at the other. So we can have a sportbike person and a cruiser person having heated argument about rear brakes, and both people can be correct for their type of bike.

Make no mistake: trail braking is an advanced technique, and can be very risky if not done right. My counsel to noobs is leave it alone. If you overcook a corner before you realize it, do like Storys said: lean that sucker over, maintain positive throttle pressure, and say a little prayer to the Gods of Rubber!

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:07 am
by storysunfolding
Sorry dan didn't realize that's what you thought. The post above almost has it right. Trail braking is carrying your braking to the apex. Turn in starts at about 70% of your braking and you trail off both brakes till the apex when you get back on the throttle.

Now as a caveat, this is an advanced technique. You end up carrying more speed into a trn which means a bigger lean angle. We are attuned to liking being straight up and perfectly horizontal. We've been traIned since birth that well fall over at a 45 degree angle. You need to practice leanng the bike in a parking lot until your comfy with lots of lean. Judging from this question my guess is that you need to work on that more.

The next point stated above is right. Using the brakes will Stand up the bike. You need to learn to counter that by adding more handgrip pressure to maintain your line. Finally you need a smooth transition from braking to getting back on the gas. None of this comes naturally and I highly recommend professional instruction then practice practice practice before using it with street riding

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:31 am
by koji52
Thanks for the info. I tend to follow the MSF slow before the turn and throttle through it. There's not much lean available to me on the V-rod so i've always adhered to slow before, maintain speed to apex and throttle out.

Since I've gotten the Buell and now have lean clearance, I'm very interested in learning the technique, or at least having an understanding of it so the additional info is welcome.

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:50 am
by storysunfolding
That's still the best way to take a turn but remember that's not the only MSf way. Slowing prior to the turn is taught exclusively in the brc and the erc. In the advanced course msrc and arc-st (same thing really) the msf teaches trail braking.

Another thing you might find interesting is that I picked up my cert to teach the msrc on a vrod. Actually most coaches picked it up on harleys which is what I believe led to creating the arc.

Take the msf arc-st or the total control clinic and you'll be amazed at what you can do on those bikes.

The brc is great but don't let the basic course be the end of your instruction.

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:04 am
by koji52
Did you do get your cert on an R model or a stock model? I have a DX, lowered with a low exhaust and longer-than-stock aftermarket pegs so clearance is a bit different for me.

Regardless, I plan on taking an advanced course at some point, probably on the Buell. Thanks for the insight though.

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:26 am
by StillTry'n
Sorry dan didn't realize that's what you thought. The post above almost has it right. Trail braking is carrying your braking to the apex. Turn in starts at about 70% of your braking and you trail off both brakes till the apex when you get back on the throttle.
Please bear with me just this last time.....

1. Is trail braking using both brakes at the same time, for whatever period of time?

2. If so: just how does using the front brake while turning NOT stand up the bike?

3. OK (don't have a heart attack on me here, story) is the apex always going to be in the same place when turning either right or left? It is the point where you've reached the halfway in the turn? The most outside or most inside of the turn?

4. Yed indeed! The lean is crucial and I am getting much better.

Also I think you can think too much about this: meaning is it possible to be able to ride a bike real well and not know what the hell you are doing. As in a three year old kid who you see racing on mini sport bikes. S/he doesn't really know what is going on but is just doing it.

5. I'm NO kid and I do need to know what the hell I'm doing and this forum is great.

Dan :oops:

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:34 am
by koji52
I'll let those more knowledgeable answer your specific questions as I am no expert on the matter of trail braking. But I will point out that you don't have to be shy about asking questions here. This is a very safety oriented forum and a great source for technique/safety information. People here want you to ride well and not become a statistic so no need for apologies.

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 12:19 pm
by storysunfolding
Not sure about the vrod since it was a rental but we ran a rocke through as well which had the lowest clearance as a guidelne.

To answer the questions

1: trail braking should be done with both brakes in unisonbut if you were to only use one then the front is the one to use.
Many people are too rough o the rear and can't/won't learn to attenuate correctly

2: using the brakes will stand up the bike. However you cabln counter this by applying more steering input to maintain your line

3: apexes are fluid based on conditions. They are typically midturn or in the case of a delayed apex a bit further. Some situations call for addng two apexes in a turn. You may not come all the way into an ideal apex point on the street. As an example in mountain riding I avoid getting too close to the double yellow on left ganders because people often cross those around blind turns

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:37 pm
by StillTry'n
1: trail braking should be done with both brakes in unisonbut if you were to only use one then the front is the one to use.
Many people are too rough o the rear and can't/won't learn to attenuate correctly
I lied. I can't resist getting more input.

I have been doing this all wrong. The reason I have been on the rear (only) in the turns is that most of my riding has been learning to maintain balance of the bike in slow tight parking lot turns: such as motorcops do in competition.

And I have brought that braking habit to the roads and twisties.

I remember my MFS class stressing to stay off the front brake unless you are upright and going straight?

But according to the thread here is not correct.

So....before I go out and get hammered on the bends: tell me one more time, please. I should maybe drop a gear...use the front brake....and then throttle out to the exit?

I have been on the rear (I call it "dragging" the rear) and I should use both: but especially the front?

Thanks, Guys!

Dan :oops:

Posted: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:49 pm
by jstark47
Dan- how long have you been riding? And what kind of a bike do you ride? (There's a reason I'm asking about the bike.)