ABS on a bike that was non-ABS

Message
Author
User avatar
RhadamYgg
Legendary 2000
Legendary 2000
Posts: 2172
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:06 pm
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 7
My Motorcycle: 2006/Yamaha/FZ6
Location: Linden, NJ

Reason for ABS

#11 Unread post by RhadamYgg »

Well, honestly I've got two reasons for wanting ABS so much.

1) I want to reduce my risk as much as possible. This is my major premise in allowing myself to ride - that I reduce my risk.

2) I'm reading Stayin' Safe Grodsky's book (depressing given it is posthumous nature) [Christmas Present] and from his columns I have been convinced of something that I was vaguely on board with already - that the majority of motorcycle accidents are caused by bad braking techniques. In addition, that I believe that ABS would reduce the chance of having issues with braking. Although he had issues with ABS - basically, you have to be prepared to go full out on the brakes - something you wouldn't do on regular brakes - to get maximum utility out of the ABS systems.

Now, as long as I've owned the B-King, and the Ninja 250 before that I haven't locked a tire on braking - even under the severe braking I have had to do on occasion.

However, in one of the other threads I recall someone talking about having trouble locking their rear tire. There was a solution to that problem, but it did remind me that during my MSF I did in fact lock the rear tire during the braking exercise - pretty much every time on the quick stop.

Now, of course the speeds are really slow in the stopping exercise in the MSF course. But what this does tell me is that I can lock the rear wheel depending on my skills at a particular moment.

So, I'm not looking in specific for a decrease in stopping distance but the safety of being unable to lock my wheels under severe braking - say avoiding getting t-boned.

I do ride in the rain - rather frequently, so the advantage of decreased stopping distance does play a roll there.

I don't believe that ABS will save me from being stupid - say if I come in to a corner too hot and decide to brake. I'd have to see some good video examples of ABS not killing the rider braking inside of a turn when engaging in even moderate braking.

MSF ABS Testing shows pretty conclusively that ABS does in fact reduce stopping distances - even on dry surfaces. But it isn't a huge or drastic advantage on dry surfaces. In reading this study - it is pretty clear that they use terns like "Test results from non-ABS motorcycles were noticeably more sensitive to
rider performance variability" - to me meaning that personal skills greatly affected results in non-ABS bikes.

I also remember (but have no reference) to a study indicating that ABS brakes stopped bikes on a consistent short distance given average riders - and that professional riders could produce shorter distances. Being a non-professional rider - I could use any bit of help that I can get.

I have utilized the ABS in my car on dry surfaces.

RhadamYgg
RhadamYgg / Skydiver / Motorbike Rider / Mountain Climber
FZ6/11302 mi|Suzuki B-King/5178 mi|Ninja 250cc/5300 mi| (rented)ST1300 850 mi
Hoping my kids don't hate me too much in the future.
Random 2003/Corwin 2006/Cordelia and Morrigan 2009

User avatar
Skier
Site Supporter - Platinum
Site Supporter - Platinum
Posts: 2242
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:44 am
Sex: Male
Location: Pullman, WA, USA

#12 Unread post by Skier »

For all my loving of modern ABS on motorcycles, none of my bikes have ever had them. Chances are good my next bike won't have them, nor the bike after that.

The best solution in this case is twofold: practice, practice practice combined with getting professional riding instruction.

Go take an experience rider course (or two!). Get out there and practice stopping with your bike at speeds you regularly attain.

When doing parking lot practice, you can measure your braking skills by carrying bean bags in your pockets. Set up markers for when to begin braking, do a maximum braking stop and drop a beanbag. Repeat and see how you are progressing.
[url=http://www.motoblag.com/blag/]Practicing the dark and forgotten art of using turn signals since '98.[/url]

User avatar
sapaul
Legendary 2000
Legendary 2000
Posts: 2386
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:45 am
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 90
My Motorcycle: 2011 R1200R 07 BMW GS, Kymco 250 little
Location: South Africa

#13 Unread post by sapaul »

The point I was trying to make was that an investment in rider skills (and we can never do enough or stop learning) will be more valuable than an investment in an ABS system.

I also know a lot of people that take pills for chronic illnesses, (bugger the diet or healthy eating, or stopping the beer and drink never mind the exercise) the pills will cure all.

People get bikes with ABS and believe they are now more capable than anyone else, just not true.
I spent my therapy money an a K1200S
The therapy worked, I got a GS now
A touch of insanity crept back in the shape of an R1200R

User avatar
RhadamYgg
Legendary 2000
Legendary 2000
Posts: 2172
Joined: Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:06 pm
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 7
My Motorcycle: 2006/Yamaha/FZ6
Location: Linden, NJ

#14 Unread post by RhadamYgg »

sapaul,
You are right. I didn't address your point. Investing 2K in to rider education would be very worthwhile. Optimally, I'd be able to do this and have a bike with ABS.
To the point of rider skills though, I did address a little bit. My skills vary greatly - depending on a lot of non-riding factors. Having an ABS system I think would cover for some (but not all) of these variances.
But I wouldn't think it would make me better than all riders. Technology hasn't gotten to that point. I suspect if technology does get to that point - a lot of us wouldn't want to ride those specific bikes that ride themselves.

RhadamYgg
RhadamYgg / Skydiver / Motorbike Rider / Mountain Climber
FZ6/11302 mi|Suzuki B-King/5178 mi|Ninja 250cc/5300 mi| (rented)ST1300 850 mi
Hoping my kids don't hate me too much in the future.
Random 2003/Corwin 2006/Cordelia and Morrigan 2009

User avatar
sapaul
Legendary 2000
Legendary 2000
Posts: 2386
Joined: Wed Jul 20, 2005 3:45 am
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 90
My Motorcycle: 2011 R1200R 07 BMW GS, Kymco 250 little
Location: South Africa

#15 Unread post by sapaul »

I hear you Mate. I guess I can be a little biased as I am involved on the training and safety side and I see a lot of returning bikers that think the technology will replace the lack of skills and training.

Typically, the comments are that they have been riding for 30 years, riding for 5 then 25 years off, and that the technology is now better and this makes them better riders.
I spent my therapy money an a K1200S
The therapy worked, I got a GS now
A touch of insanity crept back in the shape of an R1200R

User avatar
Skier
Site Supporter - Platinum
Site Supporter - Platinum
Posts: 2242
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:44 am
Sex: Male
Location: Pullman, WA, USA

#16 Unread post by Skier »

sapaul wrote:The point I was trying to make was that an investment in rider skills (and we can never do enough or stop learning) will be more valuable than an investment in an ABS system.
I don't think anyone on this board will disagree with that. I don't.
[url=http://www.motoblag.com/blag/]Practicing the dark and forgotten art of using turn signals since '98.[/url]

User avatar
jstark47
Site Supporter - Silver
Site Supporter - Silver
Posts: 3538
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:58 pm
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 16
My Motorcycle: '12 Tiger 800, '03 Trophy 1200
Location: Lumberton, NJ

Re: Reason for ABS

#17 Unread post by jstark47 »

RhadamYgg wrote:However, in one of the other threads I recall someone talking about having trouble locking their rear tire. There was a solution to that problem, but it did remind me that during my MSF I did in fact lock the rear tire during the braking exercise - pretty much every time on the quick stop.
That would be me, with my Triumph Bonneville. I could stand on that rear brake with all my weight (240+ lbs).... I could bounce up and down on it.... it ain't gonna lock! It's useful for holding the bike on hills, that's about it.

Skier- I'll try to find time tonight to read through some back issues of Motorcycle Consumer News for test reports ..... just to liven up the discussion! :twisted: :laughing:
2003 Triumph Trophy 1200
2009 BMW F650GS (wife's)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800
2018 Yamaha XT250 (wife's)
2013 Kawasaki KLX250S

User avatar
Gummiente
Site Supporter - Platinum
Site Supporter - Platinum
Posts: 3485
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 11:34 pm
Real Name: Mike
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 38
My Motorcycle: 03 Super Glide
Location: Kingston, ON

Re: Reason for ABS

#18 Unread post by Gummiente »

Rhadam, you need to realise that under certain circumstances the stopping distance will actually be increased with an ABS system. The whole concept about ABS is to enable controlled braking with maximum efficiency in all situations, not providing "on a dime" stopping distances regardless of road conditions and rider skill level. That is why there was an increase in car accidents in the first few years that ABS came out; people mistakenly assumed that they could stop shorter than with a traditional braking system in any situation, which is just not the case. ABS is not an accident avoidance system, it is an enhancement to braking systems and the sooner you understand that the better you'll be able to make full use of its potential.
:canada: Mike :gummiente:
It isn't WHAT you ride,
It's THAT you ride

User avatar
Skier
Site Supporter - Platinum
Site Supporter - Platinum
Posts: 2242
Joined: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:44 am
Sex: Male
Location: Pullman, WA, USA

Re: Reason for ABS

#19 Unread post by Skier »

Gummiente wrote:Rhadam, you need to realise that under certain circumstances the stopping distance will actually be increased with an ABS system. The whole concept about ABS is to enable controlled braking with maximum efficiency in all situations, not providing "on a dime" stopping distances regardless of road conditions and rider skill level. That is why there was an increase in car accidents in the first few years that ABS came out; people mistakenly assumed that they could stop shorter than with a traditional braking system in any situation, which is just not the case. ABS is not an accident avoidance system, it is an enhancement to braking systems and the sooner you understand that the better you'll be able to make full use of its potential.
I would like to see articles where ABS is outperformed by a good or great rider in real world scenarios. Is running the same braking chute over and over on a closed course indicative of real world scenarios? Not so much.

Is there a study that attempts this? Or are they all "we ran the exact same closed course a multitude of times and here are the best times for ABS and non-ABS stops?"
[url=http://www.motoblag.com/blag/]Practicing the dark and forgotten art of using turn signals since '98.[/url]

User avatar
Gummiente
Site Supporter - Platinum
Site Supporter - Platinum
Posts: 3485
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 11:34 pm
Real Name: Mike
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 38
My Motorcycle: 03 Super Glide
Location: Kingston, ON

Re: Reason for ABS

#20 Unread post by Gummiente »

Skier wrote:I would like to see articles where ABS is outperformed by a good or great rider in real world scenarios.
You completely missed my point. I did not say ABS is or can be outperformed by skilled riders with traditional systems - all I am saying is that it is not an "accident avoidance system" like some people mistakenly believe it to be. 100ft ABS assisted stopping distances don't mean dodo if the truck you're trying not to hit is sitting at the 80ft mark. Do you get what I'm saying now?
:canada: Mike :gummiente:
It isn't WHAT you ride,
It's THAT you ride

Post Reply