NEw rider, "procreating" up on the MSF

[Lion_Lady]

It seems that the folks who have the toughest time, are those who assume they'll pick it all up easily (or that it isn't THAT hard).

They often don't QUITE pay as much attention as they might when the coaches are giving information, and they're far far harder on themselves than anyone else if they DON'T get it.

Take a breath. Allow yourself the option of 'failing' the course this time. For now, keep at it. You'll STILL complete the class with more knowledge than what you had last Wednesday. RETAKE the course if you don't get your "M" endorsement.

Especially since you don't have clutch experience, you may just need another go at it.

I failed the class the first time. But I bought an ugly little beater 250 bike anyhow and used it to tune my skills. Then I took the class AGAIN and passed.

P

[Mintbread]

Don't worry, this chick can't figure out friction zones either:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=784973c15e

[Koss]

Ok, so you have some problems with your clutch control. Thats ok, its one of the finer points of riding a motorcycle! The clutch is a mechanical item that you can imagine to be inbetween the engine and the back wheel. Don't imagine where it as as much as what it does. Imagine that this magical item allows the power to pass from the engine to the rear tire. You know how the throttle is used to vary the power from the engine... the more throttle you twist, the more power you get from the engine and the higher rpm it throws out. Well, the clutch is the same... but image it being used the same way for the rear tire. So really you have two ways of controlling power.

Im sure you already knew that, I just wanted to provide another perspective of it. Now lets start off with your question about starting the bike in neutral. With the bike in neutral, all you have to do is just press the starter button and it comes to life and starts up. To start the engine in any gear other than neutral, like first gear for example, pull in the clutch all the way in... then press the starter button while holding the clutch lever in. There is a saftey device which does not allow the engine to start when engaged in a gear without the clutch being pulled in. It prevents the bike from flying out from under you.

Ok, now you said you had trouble understanding friction zone. Imagine the clutch lever as a means to control clutch engagement in points of a percentage. When you pull the clutch in using your fingers, the clutch is actually disengaged. Kinda counter intuitive huh. But think of it as pulling the clutch lever disengages the engine power from your rear wheel. Releasing the clutch all the way out means the clutch is actually engaged (physically engaged) the engine.

Pulling the lever all the way in is 0% clutch engagement (None of the engine power is being transfered to your rear wheel). Not touching the clutch at all and having the lever all the way out is 100% clutch engagement (All the engine power avaliable is being sent to your rear wheel) You start to feel the engine power being used for forward movement at, for example, 20%. Depending on how the bike is set up, the percentage could be higher or lower. So at 20%, you probably havn't even released your grip of the lever a half inch. Slowly move the position of the clutch from 0% to 100% and take note of when you start to feel the bike move forward(Or start to hear the engine slow down aka rpm beginning to fall or drop) That is the friction zone. From that point up to 100% is where the clutch allows engine power to transfer to your rear wheel. Less percentage, the less power used from whats avaliable. More percentage means more avaliable power being used.


Next, you asked about starting moving forward smoothly and not jerking it . Smooth acceleration not rough and a bit jerky. This can be done, but it takes the proper movements from your left and right hand. Lets first see why you are starting off moving jerky.

This is because you are probably releasing the clutch lever to quickly, or not giving the motorcycle enough throttle, or the combination of both.
You feel the bike jerk and be rough because the engine is trying not to stall, or is about to stall.

You need to slowly release the clutch into the friction zone, and at the same time slowly give the bike more throttle, and after matching those two aspects.. slowly release the clutch while keeping the same throttle or maybe slowly rotating the throttle for more. But I still think your problem is more about how fast to release the clutch lever and not the throttle position.

Raise your left hand and put it out like as if you were on a motorcycle. Pull in that lever. Now its at 0% like how we discussed earlier. Now release the lever until it is at 100%. Make sure you are watching your hand movement. Now, return to the 0% position, pull in that lever. Ok here is the good part.

Slowly release your clutch lever from 0%-100%, but this time count out 3 seconds. Like One-one-thousand. Two-one-thousand. Three-one-thousand. Or mississippi... how ever you do it

It should take you three full seconds to do this. That is how slow you should be releasing the clutch when you are starting from a full stop. Practice this until you can release that clutch smoothly in three seconds. Don't forget to give the bike some throttle... shouldn't take much throttle at all to get going smoothly. Its all in the clutch my friend, all in the clutch.

Oh... btw, countersteering is all about believing(As Sev perfectly put it). SLOWLY press the right hand grip to turn right. SLOWLY push the left hand grip to turn left. Remember to not tense up your arms, or rest your body weight through your arms and onto the grips. Hold your body up with the rest of your body. Just relax, and softly put pressure on the grip for the direction you want to turn.

Most importantly, be calm... don't panic... and never doubt yourself(I think this is good advice for anything in life). We can be our worst adversary. When you stop having fun and stop being in a calm state, you are more likely to mess up. I did worst on my second day than the first day of the class because I got nervous over the test. I could have had a 100% easily if I hadn't.

P.S. Im sorry for the HUGE post... I think im famous for my rambling on and on about something that could probably be said in a couple of sentences!

[logitech104]

I don't know how people learn this stuff in a day. I dunno...i'im frustrated, annoyed, I can't seem to do anything right, and gosh dangit, I CRIED.

Again, advice, experiences, opinions - Discuss.

Finally a guy with some emotion, a soft spot. You have nothing to be ashamed of. I proud of you for taking the msf course, most people in the world don't even take this course and are afraid to ride a motorcycle. Your already ahead of the game. Don't ever give up. I started riding a dirtbike and my dad taught me everything, I probably crashed and screwed up the clutch at least a dozen times. I am excellent at the clutch and I sometimes I still stall the bike. Also just recently, I realised that countersteering bit you were talking about. You push a tiny bit to the right, with your left hand and you fall (lean) to the left, thus turning left. Basically when you lean a certain way, you turn that way. Don't worry, you'll get it eventually, or i'll teach you myself!@

Mordeth13 on youtube explains a little on counter steering, check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BX3PMckEX-0

[Wrider]

Dudes, it's been bad.

First, i misunderstood the whole "friction zone" thing, so I "messed" that up.

I can't ever find neutral.

I can't seem to get the whole countersteering technique - it happens naturally when we're in second or third gear, but during the weave exercises, I didn't notice any improvement.

Quite honestly, I'm worried - I don't know if I'm gonna pass this test or not. The clutch thing was so bad that I actually ended up pulling off the course. I cried. Like a "procreating" idiot. Had to slap myself out of it...those MSF instructors probably think I'm an idiot kid who is too reckless (I seem to be fine with the high-speed shifting, and whatnot, but I can't do the slow-speed exercises) and who will probably crash on his first day out.

Any opinions? Advice? Experiences? I need help!

I don't know how people learn this stuff in a day. I dunno...i'm frustrated, annoyed, I can't seem to do anything right, and god dammit, I CRIED.

Again, advice, experiences, opinions - Discuss.

Alright, don't worry about it...

Crying, shmying!

Anyway, yeah, I seemed to get it, I was lucky, plus I had a good bike, a TW200. A LOT of the people in my class couldn't find neutral because of how worn the bikes were.

About the countersteering, when going through the cones, on the weave, FORCE yourself to push the right handlebar to go right, left to go left. After a little bit, it'll be ingrained in you, trust me! Don't be afraid to lean the bike over, it'll support you until gravity takes over, and that is a WAYS over.

Kinda lean the bike with your hips too... I know it sounds weird, but force the bike to lean by using your hips to move the bike, it actually works. I guarantee I looked like an idiot doing it, but it worked for me, and it showed me not only the principle of countersteering (no matter the speed) but also the center of gravity on the bike.

One other thing I've noticed, don't fight the bike, let it do the work, one thing I found is to use your feet to push the bike slightly backward, then let the clutch out slowly until you feel the bike being pushed forward, that's the friction zone. Play with that until you get comfortable... Let it out, pull it in, play with it slightly, using it to push the bike forward, and your legs to push the bike back...

Oh, and one other thing, keep the bugs outta your eyes, they tend to make you tear up a bit, and the surprise can make you sniffle... Alright?

You'll do great tomorrow, good luck, and have fun!
Wrider

[kellanv]

just keep trying...

just a question...how old are you? Sounds like you have a little issue with "control"...both placed on you and by you.

Second question...Can you ride a bicycle? At higher speeds countersteering also comes into play on the pedaled versions. Maybe this could give you a little practice(tho you have to be prepared to lean on a bicycle just as you would a motorcycle)

Anyway, keep going at it. Try not to get so frustrated and remember that while riding can mean independence, a different lifestyle etc, it should above all be FUN.

[lunchmeat]

I'm 20. Single parent household; father deceased, mother overprotective. She doesn't like risk, and I've been trying to get out of that shadow for a while. If I hadn't passed the course, she'd have been really nice about it, saying "it just wasn't meant to be, we'll get you a car, it'll be alright" which would actually be worse than her berating me, which she would never do.

Luckily for me, I passed the course.

I feel I should clarify the countersteering thing - I understand it perfectly, and I understand how to do it - I just wasn't sure if I was actually doing it or not. It's pretty intuitive, as I used to ride bikes all the time; so turning came so naturally that I wasn't sure if I was doing the right thing. (I do, however, believe I was using more body lean than I should have been; these bikes were light enough that it would work, to a certain extent, but I believe that I need to turn with just countersteering, instead of countersteering and a slight shift in body weight, as is common on a bicycle. I think I was countersteering to initiate the lean, but then I'd naturally balance through the turn? Man, I don't know. Trying to explain something that happens instinctively is difficult.) Swerving, however, wasn't really a problem, so I guess I was doing something right. Somewhat.

Today, the test day, we went through a couple pf practice drills before the exam, and I dropped the bike during the power braking exercise. I locked the front brake (as per the usual; I couldn't seem to get a progressive squeeze with that bike) and down she went. I was alert enough to grab the clutch and hit the kill switch, so I guess that's been ingrained...At any rate, that bike wasn't working anymore (I think I damaged the throttle?) so I had to ride the last working bike, the Honda Rebel.

This bike was much easier to control in every aspect (except maybe turning; it had a lower center of gravity, but locking the handlebars to one side would hit my knees, which may have come into play in the U-turn box), notably the front brake and the clutch. On the CB125 I was riding, the front brake was very sensitive; on the Rebel, it was more progressive. Same with the clutch - I think the friction zone was a little "wider" on that bike. The control levers definitely weren't as stiff; they "gave" a lot more, which I liked.

I could also start the bike in first gear with the clutch in - something i could not do on the CB125. I don't know why I couldn't do so on that bike. But being able to start in first gear made things much much easier.

I think that made the difference; I believe that if I hadn't been forced to switch bikes, I wouldn't have passed the course. Which means that although I now have the MSF certification, I'm still not quite pleased with myself. (People say I'm hard on myself, and some of you might say the same; I can't change that.) It's going to take me a lot of practice to get to the level at which I should've been to really pass the course. On that note, does anyone know where I can find a copy of the MSF practice exercises? When I do get a bike, I'd like to practice those same exercises in a parking lot, or something. I'll need the dimensions and measurements for the practice courses.

I will try to remember that 3-second clutch rule - that's probably why I stalled so much; I had no idea that when they said "ease it out", they meant that slowly. I'd been trying to ease it out in half the time, or so. I will remember that, and put it into practice.

So, to sum it all up...I've got the certification, but I'm nowhere near where I should be, in my opinion. I'm going to put in as much practice time on the back streets, neighborhoods, and parking lots, so when I need to ride in traffic I'll be ready for it.

Edit: Typed all of that, hit submit, I knew I forgot something else I was going to write. I want to thank you guys for all your support - I guess we've all been through it, something I'd forgotten. Just gotta keep going in the face of adversity, right? Thanks.

[kunosoura]

I found that the best thing I ever could do for myself as far as motorcycle control goes was to go out and turn A LOT of figure eights, one after the other. Where I live I have a huge road nearby that isn't busy, and is composed of concrete "sections" with open joints. There are numerous parking areas to appreciate the history of the area (Williamsburg/Jamestown/Yorktown area). These parking areas with the "sections" make great U-turn practice areas. Since you graduated already, I'd say when you get your bike you need to practice the hell out of slow maneuvers. That's what I do and I cannot begin to say how much it helps. If you do it enough, you learn to counterbalance and countersteer to initiate a turn without thinking about it, and you astound yourself with the techniques that quickly become habit.

[jstark47]

First, congrats on passing. Even if you feel you just squeaked by, be proud of your accomplishment!

So, to sum it all up...I've got the certification, but I'm nowhere near where I should be, in my opinion. I'm going to put in as much practice time on the back streets, neighborhoods, and parking lots, so when I need to ride in traffic I'll be ready for it.

That's a very sane attitude, and will stand you in good stead. Motorcycling is a life-long learning experience. Or should be. It's been said, "passing the MSF qualifies you to ride a 250cc bike in 2nd gear around parking lots." It's a joke, but like any good joke, there's some truth in it. Keep practicing, and so will I, and so will any smart rider.

I will try to remember that 3-second clutch rule - that's probably why I stalled so much; I had no idea that when they said "ease it out", they meant that slowly. I'd been trying to ease it out in half the time, or so. I will remember that, and put it into practice.

Most motorcycles have "wet" clutches, as opposed to cars. You can actually keep the clutch not fully engaged for an extended period of time without damage, unlike a car. Sometimes referred to as "slipping" or "feathering" the clutch. In some circumstances, the clutch can be as important a speed control as the throttle - slow, tight turns, for example.

Good luck. Keep us posted about your experiences.

[Koss]

Awesome, congratulations! Its a good feeling when you face something that seems troubling and then come out on top!

Oh, I know that alot of kawasaki bikes come with a little msf booklet. Kinda goes over a little of the basics and a few drills at the end of the book. But if you really want to get a great MSF book, check out:

The Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Guide to Motorcycling Excellence: Skills, Knowledge, and Strategies for Riding Right

Other books I liked alot were:

Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well (I can't even begin to say how much knowledge ive gained from reading this book... twice! I bet I can read it five more times and still learn more than ever! All Hail David Hough)

Ride Hard, Ride Smart: Ultimate Street Strategies for Advanced Motorcyclists (I really, really, really enjoyed this book. Still very informative and funny; Thank you Patrick Hahn)

Total Control: High Performance Street Riding Techniques (Really helpful to see saftey and skills from his persepctive. Ive learned alot of things that were never even mentioned in any other books ive read. Helped me greatly in some fundmental skills with amazing results. Probably the most drastic change in terms of control. SOme saftey stuff too. The famous Lee Parks)

More Proficient Motorcycling: Mastering the Ride (Not just more of the same stuff as the first book, and still a terrific read! Gleamed some important knowledge and further understood some other things he stated in the other book even more! David Hough)

Street Strategies: A Survival Guide for Motorcyclists
(Another David Hough book, but with a twist! Think of it as a coaches gameplan note book for the playing field. All those x's and o's. Probably the most useful book to own after you develop experience and read up on all the knowledge of the other books. See a situation you want to know if you reacted properly, or how to react next time it happens? The specifics are shown here in a easy to search and read format. Pictures too.)

If you had to buy only two books... in your case I'd buy

The Complete Idiot's Guide to Motorcycles (I know, it sounds lame but this is really a great book)
I think its a great all around book, best geared for a beginning rider. Want to know what order to do things? What the difference is between bikes? What things you will need to maintain your motorcycle? What gear is our there and what you should consider? Saftey tips? It even has a index of makes and models of motorcycles and what magazines have said about them during tests.

And last but not least

Proficient Motorcycling: The Ultimate Guide to Riding Well
(If you had to own one book for ever and ever in terms of motorcycles, get this book! It even has some drills very similar to the MSF in the back if I remember correctly)