Why a 600cc Sportbike is not a good Beginner Bike

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c-los
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#21 Unread post by c-los » Fri May 06, 2005 9:34 pm

enough! dont hijack the thread with this im-better-than-you bulls&?t, who cares...i got great info from this post, and so did a lot of other people, anyone can see, though, that there are no professionals here so some things should be taken with a grain of salt, but there's no need to bash someone for trying to help.

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#22 Unread post by QuietMonkey » Mon May 09, 2005 8:46 pm

"*Post edited by mod* - attacking other members opinions isn't exactly constructive now, is it?"

um, an attack eh. what? because i have the experience to know and disagree with someone who clearly has no first hand knowledge of what they are speaking about?? um. So that gives someone the whim to edit 95% of a posting.

Shutting down someone really ain't much of a productive action there my friends. (Pot, kettle, black. right.) Be real guys. A moderator sharing MISINFORMATION is a heck of a lot worse, than calling him on it dontchya think? geee it's sort of like I was doing something positive correcting a blatantly misguided posting. you guys floor me.

jeesh guys. it's not a game, it's a flat case of someone having experience and someone else not having the experience. He sez he "saw" it... and of course we know he didn't do it... so i hate to point out the obvious but, when you see an airplane take off does that mean you understand all the work/actions/physics at play? nope. same in what WG is seeing. there's alot involved, and what he is seeing isn't what he is saying. man... the blind leading the blind. you guys wanna dream up anything else and live in this fantasy world of unrideable sportbikes.

calling george orwell... 1984 is still alive and well... if the mod didn't say it it can't be true.

:roll:
"Zounds! Zorched by Zarches, Spaceman Spiff's crippled craft crashes on planet Plootarg!"

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#23 Unread post by QuietMonkey » Tue May 10, 2005 12:52 am

c-los wrote:enough! dont hijack the thread with this im-better-than-you bulls&?t, who cares...i got great info from this post, and so did a lot of other people, anyone can see, though, that there are no professionals here so some things should be taken with a grain of salt, but there's no need to bash someone for trying to help.
oh look, forum moderators.. i am being attacked by a mr. c-los, mr. NewYork and LA :roll: oh my oh my ;) let's watch the tide of justice... let's... i know how it usually goes around here.

well. mr. LA and NewYork, you are now also Mr. Assumption. Since you opened your mouth, assuming a couple things.

#1) I should add that my team-mate and i won an amateur endurance championship ever so long ago, finishing ahead of some pros along the way.... and i finished 2nd place in two amateur racing championships, losing one championship by a couple points. As you might expect, I was promoted to "Professional status" roadracer. funny eh. i went to University instead of continuing my race "education"... so i have never raced under pro license, but i had beaten some pros in our series' and many years later, when i returned to the track i negotiated a return to Amateur status, in part (and ironically in keeping with this thread) because i didnt ride sportbikes on the street (only on the race track) since i appreciate the finer values a decent street bike offers compared with a pure sport bike.

Soooooo... you see how it is easy to make incorrect assumptions and then make an incorrect statement, or three or six or twelve?

hilariously the bike i just got a few days ago is a reinforcement of how nicely in check my ego is, and how i have no need to sound off to tell people that i am "better" than them... only to correct blatant misinformation.

There are moderators on this forum who know me and can check out my info rather easily. but hey why listen to me, you love to listen to fiction, just as much as WhyteGryphon likes to create it. you guys can live in that fantasy world all you like. many do. i share information based on experience. if you don't want to hear it than move on and live in your dream world with the answers that you want to hear.

I am not bashing the guy for trying to help. If he were REALLY trying to help he would talk from real experience rather than assumed knowledge. I am informing the guy and other beginners reading this info that spreading misinformation has an inverse value to trying to actually help others, and if he would speak from experience he wouldn't have to worry about being so blatantly wrong. Simply, it's like telling a guy to slam the door to get his car to start... not that it wont help the odd car to start on occassion, but it sure aint close to the reality of turning the key.

#2) part of this "great" info you got, which you seem to think many others got as well (and of which in part I am rolling my eyes at incredulously), holds no tangible value. you are latching onto incorrect information as if it had some gold in it. the stuff dreams are made of indeed. Do you get it?

well guys. you really need to open some eyes here... not that i put much faith in anything big changing here, but as always there are a few more people who can gleen a bit of useful info from even worst information. good info like "dont listen to everything you hear"

//monkey
"Zounds! Zorched by Zarches, Spaceman Spiff's crippled craft crashes on planet Plootarg!"

For Sale: Ninja 600 with parts bike, needs minor work, $30, no title... (GEE THAT DOESNT RING ANY WARNING BELLS DOES IT?)

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#24 Unread post by c-los » Tue May 10, 2005 3:25 am

Mr. New York and LA...I like the sound of that hehehe 8) :laughing:

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#25 Unread post by iwannadie » Tue May 10, 2005 5:02 am

i kind of just started reading all of this, so im not sure of the entire situation. but god i hate when mods step in and act like they know everything to the point that noone can dissagree with them. just because your a mod on a forum doesnt make you the native expert on any given subject.

this is also a forum for people to voice opinions, sure we cant allow endless attacks and flaming because it just gets boring, but at the same time you cant censor everyone because 'you' dont like what they are saying or dont want someones feelings hurt, theres a wavey line that gets drawn at some point which is always unfair to someone along the way.

the bottom line if a mod is giving poor info to new riders which can put them in harms way its good he was corrected by someone with a more proven background. the reader will then decide whos response to trust. if i ever give bad info i really hope people will correct me its the only way to learn.

QuietMonkey wrote:
c-los wrote:enough! dont hijack the thread with this im-better-than-you bulls&?t, who cares...i got great info from this post, and so did a lot of other people, anyone can see, though, that there are no professionals here so some things should be taken with a grain of salt, but there's no need to bash someone for trying to help.
oh look, forum moderators.. i am being attacked by a mr. c-los, mr. NewYork and LA :roll: oh my oh my ;) let's watch the tide of justice... let's... i know how it usually goes around here.

well. mr. LA and NewYork, you are now also Mr. Assumption. Since you opened your mouth, assuming a couple things.

#1) I should add that my team-mate and i won an amateur endurance championship ever so long ago, finishing ahead of some pros along the way.... and i finished 2nd place in two amateur racing championships, losing one championship by a couple points. As you might expect, I was promoted to "Professional status" roadracer. funny eh. i went to University instead of continuing my race "education"... so i have never raced under pro license, but i had beaten some pros in our series' and many years later, when i returned to the track i negotiated a return to Amateur status, in part (and ironically in keeping with this thread) because i didnt ride sportbikes on the street (only on the race track) since i appreciate the finer values a decent street bike offers compared with a pure sport bike.

Soooooo... you see how it is easy to make incorrect assumptions and then make an incorrect statement, or three or six or twelve?

hilariously the bike i just got a few days ago is a reinforcement of how nicely in check my ego is, and how i have no need to sound off to tell people that i am "better" than them... only to correct blatant misinformation.

There are moderators on this forum who know me and can check out my info rather easily. but hey why listen to me, you love to listen to fiction, just as much as WhyteGryphon likes to create it. you guys can live in that fantasy world all you like. many do. i share information based on experience. if you don't want to hear it than move on and live in your dream world with the answers that you want to hear.

I am not bashing the guy for trying to help. If he were REALLY trying to help he would talk from real experience rather than assumed knowledge. I am informing the guy and other beginners reading this info that spreading misinformation has an inverse value to trying to actually help others, and if he would speak from experience he wouldn't have to worry about being so blatantly wrong. Simply, it's like telling a guy to slam the door to get his car to start... not that it wont help the odd car to start on occassion, but it sure aint close to the reality of turning the key.

#2) part of this "great" info you got, which you seem to think many others got as well (and of which in part I am rolling my eyes at incredulously), holds no tangible value. you are latching onto incorrect information as if it had some gold in it. the stuff dreams are made of indeed. Do you get it?

well guys. you really need to open some eyes here... not that i put much faith in anything big changing here, but as always there are a few more people who can gleen a bit of useful info from even worst information. good info like "dont listen to everything you hear"

//monkey

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#26 Unread post by Gadjet » Tue May 10, 2005 8:10 am

iwannadie wrote:i kind of just started reading all of this, so im not sure of the entire situation. but god i hate when mods step in and act like they know everything to the point that noone can dissagree with them. just because your a mod on a forum doesnt make you the native expert on any given subject.

this is also a forum for people to voice opinions, sure we cant allow endless attacks and flaming because it just gets boring, but at the same time you cant censor everyone because 'you' dont like what they are saying or dont want someones feelings hurt, theres a wavey line that gets drawn at some point which is always unfair to someone along the way.

the bottom line if a mod is giving poor info to new riders which can put them in harms way its good he was corrected by someone with a more proven background. the reader will then decide whos response to trust. if i ever give bad info i really hope people will correct me its the only way to learn.

Well said

I would like to clarify a few things that appear to be getting lost in the rhetoric.

Yes, I am a moderator on this site. Not on this particular forum section though

I have never claimed to be an expert at anything. There's only one person here doing that.

I have never denied that I have only been riding for a little over one year.

How do you define who is a new rider? QuietMonkey apparently defines it in terms of how many years a person has been riding.

I rode over 10000 miles (16000 km) in my first 9 months of riding, before having to stop for winter. Does this make me a new rider. Does this make me less experienced than someone who has been riding for 5 years but only put 5000 miles on their bike in that time?

You decide.

Anyone that wants to get personal about this or talk to me about things off list, feel free.

Owen
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#27 Unread post by Keyoke » Thu May 12, 2005 12:40 pm

Ok, just to point out why i edited QuietMonkey's post. It was simply because It was just an attack on another member. I would have done the same had that member been a Mod or not. There was nothing useful in the post - no reasoning as to why you disagreed with WhyteGryphon, just a personal attack on his experience.

If you wish to post your own personal opinion on what would happen in the given situation, please feel free.
Now, (this goes for everyone) please no more talk about who does, or who does not have experience - all opinions are going to be different, some are more correct than others, but all are welcome to share their view.

So, please, more constructive views to the point in hand, I don't want to have to delete/lock this thread.

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#28 Unread post by totalmotorcycle » Thu May 12, 2005 7:07 pm

Well said Keyoke, I think you can get on with this topic and delete any off-topic theads so this really great 600cc sportbike discussion can continue. :D

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#29 Unread post by hambyman » Fri Jun 17, 2005 12:49 pm

oldnslo wrote:I didn't read it, but I know what it says. And it's all true. We have had visitors here who are convinced they are the exceptions, and it is futile sometimes to try to convince them otherwise. They are more intelligent, more athletic, stronger, and more agile than the norm. Of course, that has little to do with surviving traffic on a motorcycle. Might help if you are stationed in the jungle, though. It has always been our intent to promote safety, education, and improving skills, and most everything else takes care of itself, mainly because those three things are the most important things in a long, satisfying, riding life.
It's incredibly simple.


ok, ill admit, i was one of those guys. SV650S was my first choice. lets just say that has moved on up to being my first choice for a second bike later on in life. still a little nervous about getting a 250 bc ill br driving interstate thru VA quite a bit...would a 500 be a better bet for driving 210 miles every other weekend?
-Hamby

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#30 Unread post by sapaul » Tue Sep 06, 2005 7:25 am

Whilst some of the arguments against a larger cc bike are valid, I cannot agree with a blanket statement against all new riders buying into this catagory. There are far too many variables. As a newbie 25 years ago I rode a 250 dual. Then had 15 years of only riding observed trials. When I got back onto the road I had to take everything that I thought I knew and throw it away. The bikes had changed, the technology had changed, riding skills had changed. I was a newbie again. The bike I chose to get back on the road with was an SP 1000 Moto Guzzi. Big Loud V Twin. I am only 5'7" but never struggled. What I think made the difference was that I had determined to learn. I spent the money and went to track school. I did the beginner basics and I practiced my skills in car parks. Have progressed from there to now riding a K1200S but still put in a minimum of 2 to 3 training sessions per year and learn something new everytime. Maybe bike size has nothing to do with it, maybe attitude has.
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Thanks

#31 Unread post by pakole » Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:23 pm

Thanks for the informative article while I would like to think that I am wise and just accept advice from my more experienced brethen. I am glad that I had a thought-out answer to why I should not go beyond 500 cc. Now, I can just go and plan to get my first bike with this in mind. Thanks again.
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#32 Unread post by Kal » Mon Dec 05, 2005 11:49 pm

WhyteGryphon wrote:You may not agree with it, but I've seen it happen.
It happened to me a few times near the begining of the summer. I was experimeting a lot with engine braking without feathering the clutch or rev matching. It is a technique that is good for shedding 10mph or so pretty much instantly.

No one had told me that it can cause your back wheel to lock up, I fifgured as long as there is some power going to your rear wheel its all good. I didnt go over, but then I ride a very forgiving small power bike, however the back wheel did "step out" on more than one occasion. I stopped doing it so much aftrer a conversation with Duken when he enlightened me.
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#33 Unread post by Seetrout » Thu Dec 15, 2005 8:13 pm

Just a repeat of "My first bike story".
This starts June 05.
I wasn't looking for a crotch rocket.
I didn't think I was buying a crotch rocket.
Salesman know squat unless they're selling what they ride.
Mine rode cruisers.
I bought a "detuned" crotch rocket.
I crashed and burned.
Would a smaller/different style bike have made a difference? I don't know. I don't have enough experience to fully put together what went wrong.
When it happens, it happens FAST.
I wasn't hotrodding or showing off.
I was actually taking my time.
I'm now old enough to know I'm not bulletproof. BUT.
It's still too tempting to twist the throttle for some "grin time".
Glad I wasn't 'grinning' when I went down.
I'm not going to give up my bike, Yet, But let me show you my scar and limp.
Power is awesome.
Pain is not!
OK, ok I'll shut up now.

Well here's MY story (always a bad start). Back in June I was on vacation and thinking about a bike (never figured the wife would go for it.). Figured something like a 250 to 400cc twin for a commuter would be nice, but the salesman said if you're going to be on the highway go for something around a 600, and talked me right into it (figured it didn't matter anyway - no way no how was my wife going to let me get a bike). Sad

I was looking at the 1 cyl suzy and a 2 cyl yam, both cruisers, when I noticed this bright yellow Honda leftover marked waaay down (The local shop has a used one they're asking $200 more for than what I paid). Still more than the others, but looked like a good deal. Looked like a lot more bike for the money too. Nice and sporty looking, but not like a crotch rocket. Smile

Stopped by with the wife to show her what I was looking at "just for grins"
and lo and behold she says "Well, go ahead and get it for your birthday tomorrow"!!!!!!????? I really do Love my wife by the way Very Happy Very Happy

So I rounded up a learners permit and put my money down and wheeled out my brand new leftover Honda 599 the next day on my birthday. Idled it around the parking lot in 1st & 2nd a while and headed out. Pulled out into the street and gave it just a little gas to get it moving and said "Holy "crumb", what have I done?" I know there's lot's faster bikes, but this is way too much for a novice. Like me. Shocked

Three weeks later I got my first speeding ticket in 5 years (Don't tell my wife). I avoid cars like they're the plague. 2 weeks after that I aced my MSF course and got my real licence. 4 weeks after that on my way to work I found some of that cool blacktop that gets all pushed up in the middle of the lane by the 18 wheelers and took the high side at 65mph. Crying or Very sad

You can say what you want, but I say ABATE is stoopid. Mad I can remember sliding down the highway, feeling my helmet bouncing along and thinking "THANK GOD I"M WEARING A HELMET!!!" Broke my kneecap in half and had to have it screwed back together. Crying or Very sad

So now $21,000 in doctors bills, $4,500 in repairs to the bike and I can still walk and I've taken it out for a couple small rides around the block, weather permitting. The cold makes my knee hurt like hell.
Familiarity breeds contempt.

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huh sport bikes

#34 Unread post by CM400ERider » Mon Jan 23, 2006 6:33 am

I never really liked sport bikes started riding at 8 before they were around and as I got into bigger bikes you know 350 to 400 CC actually pretty big bikes in the 60s then the sport bikes came out and I saw a lot of daddys little boys learn to eat pavement on 600 -900 cc machines I have ridden for almost 40 years now and I got on my first Sport bike last year I cant say going 140 mph in less then a half mile wasnt fun but that bike was only 600 cc and old these bikes are very fast and very dangerious in young and inexperenced hands Heck their very fast and very dangerious in old and experenced hands.:shock: I think I'll stick with my old reliable sit up straight and ride forever bikes. oh yeah I read the whole artical and thought it was very informative. Thanks for the post. I will insure my grand nephew reads it as he wants one of thoughs big fast bikes when he is allowed to start on the street but knows that he will probally get stuck with either the 400 or 550 in the garage. :frusty:
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#35 Unread post by xnorwaks » Thu Apr 27, 2006 12:28 pm

Well Written article :) Its convinced me to not F*ck around when it comes to starting off

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#36 Unread post by mrchen » Fri Sep 01, 2006 3:52 pm

I've got a little old Bandit 600S model with just a few mods (pipe, timing advancer, jetting etc.) it probably has 90 hp. The new 2006 600's (GSXR, CBR, R6, 636 KAWI) all have from 101 to 109hp. My engine is Suzuki Katana based.

I would say one ride on the back of this bike would make any beginer change his mind, the acceleration after 7,000 rpm and onto 11,500 is just amazing, mid 11 second quarters are not for learning. The GS500, Buell Blast, Ninja 250 and 500 are fine bikes. I began riding at a very young age with light motorcycles, it is nice to learn on a light bike and then jump on a heavier machine than to try to learn cornering on a heavier bike from the start, you will progress faster in your skills riding the light bike.

This was an excellent thread and I enjoyed reading it.
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Re: Why a 600cc Sportbike is not a good Beginner Bike

#37 Unread post by freebird73 » Wed Feb 22, 2012 8:43 pm

I didn't read any material or forums before I bought my first bike, it's a yzf600r. I made the mistake of riding and falling in love with it before I did my research. I do not by any means think that I am the exception to the rule. The bike is very, very responsive to any whim, and has scared me half to death several times. I power through and take the lesson for what it is every time.
I have dropped it 3 times standing in my driveway and recently I actually dumped it when a car turned suddenly in front of me and i mashed the brakes, I was in full gear so i only ended up with some scratches, bruises as well as a bruised ego.(ive put 6000 miles on it so in my mind i FELT like I was an experienced rider)
I have to admit, I have been wondering if I woulda started on a smaller, lighter bike would the end result have been the same? I do know that i have a LOT of learning to do and I am as far from being experienced now than i was 7 mnths ago when iI started, and I have a renewed respect for the machine and skill it takes to handle it.
Not to sound stubborn or argumentative to all the seasoned riders here, but i wouldn't trade my bike for anything I still LOVE it, but if I had it to do over again I think I would have started with a smaller recommended model.

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Re: Why a 600cc Sportbike is not a good Beginner Bike

#38 Unread post by grendel » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:26 pm

^ Jessica, it's a good thing you didn't get seriously hurt. I believe that new riders should start on smaller bikes, but I also realize that advice never fits all cases - some folks are able to respect a more powerful bike, while others should stick to 70cc or less, regardless of their tenure LOL. Just glad you didn't learn THAT hard a lesson (if ya know what I mean). :)

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Re: Why a 600cc Sportbike is not a good Beginner Bike

#39 Unread post by storysunfolding » Wed Feb 22, 2012 10:46 pm

Can you win a poker game with a pair of 2s? Absolutely! It's just preferable to play on better odds.

As to respect, it's not a matter of your appreciation so much as your proprioception - it needs time to develop.

Having trained thousands of riders at this point, I can anecdotally say that the ones that start on smaller bikes and take follow on training end up being the best riders in the pack. It's fun to see a rider on a 250 or 500 walk away from a guy on an S1000RR or ZX10.
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Re: Why a 600cc Sportbike is not a good Beginner Bike

#40 Unread post by sapaul » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:18 am

Got to agree with Story's here, it's so much easier to mentally dominate a smaller bike and learn skills within your ability. practice will make perfect (or near enough)
I spent my therapy money an a K1200S
The therapy worked, I got a GS now
A touch of insanity crept back in the shape of an R1200R

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