Anyone fail the MSF course?

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#21 Unread post by scan » Mon Nov 21, 2005 11:11 pm

I wouldn't say scam. I saw 4 people in my class who had no business on the road with a motorcycle, fail the class. They couldn't control the bike well. Stopping was a disaster for two of them, and one could not do slow controlled movement at all. The other just had some slight problems with every excersize and quit early. He showed up without the required boots and long sleaved jacket. He took off home, came back, and quit later that day. Who know? There was also an experienced rider who was too good to be in the class almost - he passed and probably was just doing a refresher.

I got a lot out of the class myself. I sort of took the class because my wife (Loonette) wanted to ride bike and I felt odd not getting an endorsment too. I fell in love with riding by taking the MSF. It was a bargain for me - not a scam at all. But I dig the right to an opinion.
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#22 Unread post by Shenanigans7 » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:14 am

i wouldn't say scam either, because i got a lot out of it. i really think it depends on what you're feelings are going into it. a few of the guys in mine had been riding for like a year already, they were just here to get their license and do it legally. yet they still came to learn, and at the end even admitted seeing new things or really toning up what they already knew.

personally, i really enjoyed it, as my instructors were both awesome and helpful. the other half of my class finished way early, but we had no rush in ours. everyone was coached individually the second day, and everyone passed. of course, like someone already said, its not like out poo don't stink, but i think its definitely worthwhile to take the course. BTW, i paid $210 with a full-time student discount.
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#23 Unread post by jmillheiser » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:55 am

I had little trouble passing my MSF course. I only paid $15 for mine. Wyoming has subsidized MSF courses.

Everyone in my class passed except for one guy who didn't show up for day 2

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#24 Unread post by britishjoe » Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:53 am

I failed my first bike test many years ago for turning up and not signing my Provisional licence before the test, if you do that its a Immidiate fail in the UK, and you cant sign it in front of the examiner, your just poop out of luck,, when I took my next text I passed but I had to wait one month between tests, I was Gutted.

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#25 Unread post by Mustang » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:45 am

jmillheiser wrote:................Wyoming has subsidized MSF courses.
This is the standard that should be across the US. Forget about trying to push Helmet laws...mandatory MSF (or equivilent) training to get your motorcycle license. Since it would be required it should be subsidized.....
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#26 Unread post by storysunfolding » Tue Nov 22, 2005 10:19 am

Mustang wrote:
jmillheiser wrote:................Wyoming has subsidized MSF courses.
This is the standard that should be across the US. Forget about trying to push Helmet laws...mandatory MSF (or equivilent) training to get your motorcycle license. Since it would be required it should be subsidized.....
It's a nice thought... However, I don't think it should be required. Also, around here the MSF costs $150 and it's booked on day one through the entire season. If it were only $15 and required they would have to set up at least 3 times as many classes or you would never get in one without at least a year long wait.
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#27 Unread post by Sev » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:03 pm

storysunfolding wrote:
Mustang wrote:
jmillheiser wrote:................Wyoming has subsidized MSF courses.
This is the standard that should be across the US. Forget about trying to push Helmet laws...mandatory MSF (or equivilent) training to get your motorcycle license. Since it would be required it should be subsidized.....
It's a nice thought... However, I don't think it should be required. Also, around here the MSF costs $150 and it's booked on day one through the entire season. If it were only $15 and required they would have to set up at least 3 times as many classes or you would never get in one without at least a year long wait.
That would weed out a lot of the squids. Similar to a 5 day waiting period for guns, but instead it's a year long waiting period for a motorcycle... I kinda like it.

Only the truely dedicated would go. And rather then subsidizing it, lets make it cost more, then people wouldn't sign up on a whim. And since they're signing up a year in advance, we won't call them to remind when their course starts, they have to remember and show up themselves.

Then you have to show a license to buy a bike.

LoL, well I think mandatory MSF wouldn't be a bad thing anyways.
Of course I'm generalizing from a single example here, but everyone does that. At least I do.

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#28 Unread post by storysunfolding » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:30 pm

Increase the price and make it mandatory... like a poll tax?

Silly squid, you don't understand enough about motorcycles and apparently don't care enough to pay to ride one.

Sounds like the old

Silly negro, you don't understand enough about politics and apparently don't care enough to pay to vote.

Or maybe the rich should be the only ones who should have fun, or have alternate forms of transportation. If they aren't wearing a Shoei Helmet it'll be obvious that they're a thief and that will increase motorcycle security as well.
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#29 Unread post by Nibblet99 » Tue Nov 22, 2005 12:50 pm

Sevulturus wrote:That would weed out a lot of the squids. Similar to a 5 day waiting period for guns, but instead it's a year long waiting period for a motorcycle... I kinda like it.
Either that, or all the squids will just ride without any training, insurance, or license.... It's a can of worms that should only be opened if the demand can be met in my (not so humble) opinion
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#30 Unread post by scan » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:08 pm

Well I don't know if I want to even get near there...

But, I think if we could charge more and pay the trainers (at least a small fee) we would have more trainer, more times to choose from, and more trained (or filtered out) riders. Mandatory training/testing seems like a good way to start people.

Regarding economical transportation - I don't see how anyone with out a bit of extra cash could ride a bike long term anyway. They require care and feeding that is not cheap, even if you do the minimum. You might be able to match the cost of keeping a car if you ride the bike and only the bike all year round (and not keep a cage at all) but otherwise if you have a car and a bike, the bike is an extra expense (meaning something you don't need). In only a very few places in the world is it practical for most people to buy a cheap bike and ride it all year round. And if you have to move furniture, pick up a large parcel, transport more than one person, you are stuck with having a spare cage, or having family or friends at your demand.

I know people always say, pick up a cheap old bike and fix it up. I've seen cheap old bikes that are fixer uppers. Very few are running and fewer are running well, and the remainders are projects that someone has time and money for - but I digress.

I want to make clear that I know there are some (even on this board) that ride all year round, and some that ride all year round in the snowy places, but for most people being that hardcore is not palatable. A bike is for the most part an extra, a toy, and/or therapy.
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#31 Unread post by cb360 » Tue Nov 22, 2005 1:21 pm

-Curly- wrote:The MSF is just a scam. I paid $195 for a 2 1/2 days. 6 hours class room and 10 hours waiting in line to do a couple of runs on there course. The state doesn't have to test you, so they save money and some small company gets some work, and your money.

But since I never rode before, I took it. I failed the figure 8 misurably, the swerve was a joke, I had no problem with the quik stop, hit two cones on the curve thingy, and passed.

I got my license, used the exercises in a parking lot when I bought my bike, and 1400 miles later I am better off now that I took it.

The MSF is a scam, a helpful scam, but still a scam.
Maybe you got hooked up with a bad outfit...

#1 It was raining cats and dogs on both our course days... and we still had at least 12 hours on the bikes. A whole lot more riding than waiting.

#2 I don't think you'd have passed our class. Points off for the figure 8 of course... and if I remember correctly they told us we failed automatically if we went outside the lines on the curve thing - which was admittedly pretty easy. Sounds like they just wanted to get out of there and didn't want to bother with a re-test.

- Like any other class, it is all about the teacher. Our teacher was a career Navy man who took his job very seriously. He told you the parameters and graded according to them. If you passed, you passed, if you failed, you failed. He was nice about it, but a couple people didn't make it.

Anyway - I thought the local Seattle class was great and I'd recommend it to anyone. Definitely learned a ton and it certainly wasn't a scam or a waste of time. It would be a pretty simple job to flog though, if that's the kind of person you were... 'That's great... you all pass! I'm outta here. Oh wow, we finished 2 and a half hours early!"
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#32 Unread post by Mustang » Tue Nov 22, 2005 2:01 pm

scanevalexec wrote:But, I think if we could charge more and pay the trainers (at least a small fee) we would have more trainer, more times to choose from, and more trained (or filtered out) riders. Mandatory training/testing seems like a good way to start people.
Exactly my thought. With it being mandatory, the availability of the class would have to be increase. Should be inexpensive with part of the costs coming from what money is spent by the DMV to give the motorcycle test, since that would be who you're effectively replacing.

I don't understand the powers that be ignoring the motorcycle. They're are so many drivers ed programs for kids, why wouldn't you have something in place for a bike?
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#33 Unread post by rockytime » Tue Nov 22, 2005 7:23 pm

I did recently fail the MSF course. It was a two day course because the written work was to be done prior to class time. The course was $200. I thought it was reasonable. I had not ridden a bike since 1964 and I'm 67 years old. However, hoping to be a kid, again I have decided to take up riding again. I failed the course in spite of an excellent instructor. I was taking the course with people who had ridden before but perhaps moved in from out of state, were fairly new riders and all had some experience. Trying to keep up was intimidating. Having repect for my own skin and others I do not ride on the street. I did this weekend take my bike to a large high school parking lot for practice riding. It actually went very well. I had no one to answer to except my son-in-law who rode the bike to the lot for me. I am having a knee replacement in two weeks so practice will be deferred for a while. Also Colorado weather will be getting a little chilly. I will learn to be proficient with the excercises tho prior to taking the course again. I did appreciate and respect the instructor I had. I'm practicing on a Yamaha XV1100 which will make the course bike much easier to control.

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#34 Unread post by -Curly- » Tue Nov 22, 2005 9:20 pm

#2 I don't think you'd have passed our class. Points off for the figure 8 of course... and if I remember correctly they told us we failed automatically if we went outside the lines on the curve thing - which was admittedly pretty easy. Sounds like they just wanted to get out of there and didn't want to bother with a re-test.
I got 3 points deducted for each time I crossed the line. I crossed the line about 5 ft the first half of the 8 and about 2 feet out of the box on the top half. -6 points. The instruter said it was 5 points if you put your feet down, so 1 person just walked his way around it and got less points deducted then me. At least tried to do it. I think the cones were 6 points each cause I ended up -18 points out of 20 when it was all over.
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#35 Unread post by CajunBass » Wed Nov 23, 2005 10:44 am

-Curly- wrote: I got 3 points deducted for each time I crossed the line. I crossed the line about 5 ft the first half of the 8 and about 2 feet out of the box on the top half. -6 points. The instruter said it was 5 points if you put your feet down, so 1 person just walked his way around it and got less points deducted then me. At least tried to do it. I think the cones were 6 points each cause I ended up -18 points out of 20 when it was all over.
As I was leaving after the first day of my MSF, I heard the instructor telling one of the other students that you could either put your foot down, or go outside the lines and still pass, but not both.

She asked him, "You mean we can just walk the bike through and still pass?"

He said "You can put your foot down, or you can go outside the lines and still pass, but not both."

Maybe I should have gone back for that third day. With instruction like that I might have passed after all.
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#36 Unread post by cb360 » Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:25 am

-Curly- wrote:
#2 I don't think you'd have passed our class. Points off for the figure 8 of course... and if I remember correctly they told us we failed automatically if we went outside the lines on the curve thing - which was admittedly pretty easy. Sounds like they just wanted to get out of there and didn't want to bother with a re-test.
I got 3 points deducted for each time I crossed the line. I crossed the line about 5 ft the first half of the 8 and about 2 feet out of the box on the top half. -6 points. The instruter said it was 5 points if you put your feet down, so 1 person just walked his way around it and got less points deducted then me. At least tried to do it. I think the cones were 6 points each cause I ended up -18 points out of 20 when it was all over.
seems like our class had -5 for just about everything.
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#37 Unread post by scan » Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:32 am

Just for a point of reference I rode all over that figure 8, but mostly outside the lines and passed. I did flawlessly on everything else. They gave us time to practice on our own before the test (hour or so) and I spend a lot of time obsessing about failing the class because of the 8 box. It ended up not being the most important thing.
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#38 Unread post by cb360 » Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:03 pm

Yeah, the whole figure 8 thing is a source of great consternation for many, mostly because it's a slow maneuver that takes a while and if you freeze up you can be 15 points down (two foot downs and one outside the lines, e.g.) lickety split. I posted this in another thread a while back - if you are concerned that you won't ace it, just blow the first turn way wide.... that makes the second turn a piece of cake. You'll miss a total of 5 points. That's what I did and I think I got a 93. I question the inclusion of this exercise on the test - I agree that it demonstrates skill at slow speeds - an important thing... but it's just not something you need to do to be a good rider and I would wager that more points are missed on the test for this than anything else. It seems like they could add more exercises on tight turns and emergency breaking or engaging the clutch on an incline or anything really to take it's place. Being able to do a u-turn in a tight spot is not near as important as being able to stop safely in the middle of one if you're gonna hit something or being able to make the decision that a u-turn here isn't a very good idea. That's my two cents.
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#39 Unread post by Shenanigans7 » Thu Nov 24, 2005 1:30 pm

my instructor told us flat out that the figure eight is not something that was gonna save our life someday, as opposed to the quick stop and swerve. so he told us that it would be graded accordingly. most my class did great on it, and yea, i think the most anyone missed for it was five points.
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