Help please, Ladies training

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sapaul
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Help please, Ladies training

#1 Unread post by sapaul » Wed Sep 15, 2010 2:50 am

Due to the increase in lady riders here in SA. I have organised some training for free for a bunch of ladies.

I want to do some homework, this is because men just do not understand how women think and although I am experienced in training men, I find that mixed groups tend to have the girls zoning out, particularly on the technical stuff. Ultimately they miss out.

The ladies attending are all riding but have no or very little formal training. We intend to cover

Smooth pull off, I find a lot of ladies will ease the clutch out very slowly. (Why is this)

Looking through corners,

Keeping within the lines, in particular, riding at the pace and corner entry speed. (Why do men love to lean and women fear it)

Overcoming survival reactions

help me to help them please via your comments

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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#2 Unread post by MZ33 » Wed Sep 15, 2010 10:02 am

Wow, SApaul, kudos to you for doing this!

I am kind of hesitant to say there are big differences in how women learn vs. how men learn. I've done all my MC learning in either a mixed or all-guys-except-me group. Each individual will have different issues, regardless of gender, although gender & culture may result in different ways of expressing it.

LionLady & Blues are better equipped to address this, I know, but it sounds like this group lacks formal instruction & coaching more than anything. Giving them specific & individual feedback in each exercise should be the most helpful.

Best guess:
slow to let out clutch = either "I don't want to either stall or pop a wheelie" or mistaking slow for smooth. The whole clutch/throttle/friction zone thing needs practic

eyes up = that isn't gender-specific, that's common

leaning = don't really understand the mechanics of pressing on the handlebar to lean the bike. Tend to try to use the body, in the case of women, more likely to use hips

If you don't have the first three, the lines & cornering are bound to be erratic. Hardest for me is to slow entry speed in advance of the turn, then apply smooth throttle to get out. Don't bother with the specifics of suspension/etc until they've got a feel for it beginning to work for them, then you can maybe explain why it works. It helps to emphasize that only experience & practice will make this better--this is very much a progressive skill, one to work on for a lifetime.

Overcoming survival reactions: only practice of new reactions, to supplant the old ones, is effective. So, they must teach themselves slowly & methodically to do this. You can give them the new tools, but they have to want it enough to go out and practice them on their own, repeatedly. Here's the kicker: practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect. Whatever they practice is what they will do. Therefore, they should expect to continue to need coaching, and also to learn to analyze for themselves what they are doing & how to fix it, checking back with other proficient riders on how their abilities are progressing. That's what a biking community is for.
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#3 Unread post by sapaul » Thu Sep 16, 2010 1:28 am

Thanks MZ, 30 odd views and you are kind enough to post. Appreciate it.

I am not looking so much as to how to teach them, what I am trying to do is get inside the female mind set.

Your points on not stalling or popping wheelies lets me know where the fears are.

(leaning = don't really understand the mechanics of pressing on the handlebar to lean the bike. Tend to try to use the body, in the case of women, more likely to use hips) Great point, a too technical explanation of counter steering can leave most people zoned out.

(practice doesn't make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.) This I really like, thank you.
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#4 Unread post by MZ33 » Thu Sep 16, 2010 12:42 pm

I have noticed my fellow women have similar responses both to motorycles and power tools. We seem to have a keener understanding of what it means to get hurt. Big, vibrating, noisy machines with the capacity to move fast are scary. So, um, we often hang back a little more until we know more about how it works, what it does, what's the worst thing it can do, etc.

From a social perspective, women generally collaborate more, and feel less of a need to "master" the bike or the tool. We want to work with it, not be it's overlord. Don't mistake this! We want to be as smokin' proficient as any guy, and we can be quite competitive. But we do not expect to "win" over a bike or a power tool by wrestling it into submission.

Wish I could take credit for the perfect practice quote, but it comes from my husband's karate sensei.
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#5 Unread post by sapaul » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:25 am

That makes a lot of sense, can you explain that to my wife please, she not only wrestles me to the ground but stomps me while I am there.

Cheers
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#6 Unread post by Wardy » Fri Sep 17, 2010 2:59 am

I think it has a lot to do with the teacher, especially if the rider is completely new to riding.
I am about to finish (hopefully this week) all my training and have been lucky enough to have the most amazing and patient teacher. He takes it slow, but teaches and watches you and picks up on all the little things I wasn't doing right.
The only issue I had was my corners/leaning. He worked out that I wasn't letting my body relax enough, I was too tense, therefore I wasn't allowing myself to push on the bars or lean into the corners. Even though I wasn't afraid of the bike or felt uncomfortable, I still wasn't relaxing with my bike.
Perfect practice with the right teacher is exactly what makes you a great rider!

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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#7 Unread post by sapaul » Fri Sep 17, 2010 5:38 am

Thanks Wardy. 90% of lady riders I work with tend to use the upper body, and too straight arms instead of the floppy chicken wing technique, but then a lot of guys too. I do stress body positioning in the training as being of vital importance when you ride.

Patience, no man, we are in Africa, if you do not get it right first time, we send you back to the mud hut to pluck the chicken for tonight's supper, then to the corn field and finally the Mopane tree for Mopane worms. Yummy
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#8 Unread post by Johnj » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:27 am

Jeepers that looks like a big worm. I bet a little garlic butter and some onions and Mmmmm...tasty.
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#9 Unread post by MZ33 » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:42 am

sapaul wrote:That makes a lot of sense, can you explain that to my wife please, she not only wrestles me to the ground but stomps me while I am there.
Sounds like she's just being proficient, is all. :innocent2:
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#10 Unread post by Lion_Lady » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:04 pm

My observations, in a nutshell. Guys aren't afraid of breaking something (ie the bike), or of falling down, in the process of learning a new physical skill. Its how they process the information. Women, being more social, tend to want to talk about a new skill first - it helps them understand what to do. This seems especially true when learning to ride. Some discussion is important, but you've got to steer them quickly away from the "what ifs" and get them riding, as soon as possible.

Maybe use a progression from friction zone/smooth starting and stopping, to shifting and stopping. Then weaving. As well as setting up for a corner. Stopping in a corner. Oh, and of course dreaded slow speed maneuvers. Have you checked out Capt Crash's videos? >> check your PMs.

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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#11 Unread post by Wardy » Sat Sep 18, 2010 2:39 am

We did weaves for a good hour before we went out today and boy did it make a difference to my corners! The simple things in training make such a difference. I feel so much better knowing that when i see a corner or bend coming up im not going to freeze!

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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#12 Unread post by kaifzenn » Sat Sep 18, 2010 11:51 am

While power tools are extremely helpful, they also produce gratuitous amounts of noise and vibrations. Using power tools without hearing protection over a long period of time can put a person at risk for hearing loss.

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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#13 Unread post by blues2cruise » Sat Sep 18, 2010 6:17 pm

A lot..not all....women grew up being told they could not do things.....fast forward to adulthood....they believe they can't so have a hard time doing it.
The other thing is many women have been made to feel incompetent....so they are so afraid to make a mistake or stall...for fear of looking foolish or being made fun of.....

Some women have never been "allowed" to use power tools or work machinery....and now they have a desire to learn motorcycling....suddenly they are in control of a big machine....their past comes back into their conscience and they get nervous.....

When learning to ride I had the same problem that I see a lot of people have....the throttle revs so high and makes a lot of noise...so the newbie lets go of the throttle.....it can be very frustrating....
A technique that helps is to have the person hold in the clutch while you rev the throttle....they then get to know that it's only noise....have them practice it.....once they realize that the clutch lever take the power away and that the throttle is only making noise....their confidence increases. I learned that technique and have used it a few times for newbs I was teaching.

Have them spend a bit of time making the bike move slowly with their feet on the ground while they get used to the clutch/throttle control. When they know they can make the bike move and not stall, their confidence will increase.

Lack of confidence is often the biggest barrier to learning.
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#14 Unread post by Lion_Lady » Sun Sep 19, 2010 9:29 am

Lack of confidence IS a big part of learning to ride. In order to stay safe, women have got to get beyond self-confidence, into calm assertiveness (no, not aggression) on the road.

Since the women that sapal is talking about have been riding, I'll hope that they don't have the issues that a lot of female "never-never's" have with the sound of wide open throttle startling them into doing something dumb.

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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#15 Unread post by sapaul » Wed Sep 22, 2010 2:33 am

The single most dangerous thing we encounter here is riding too slow. The motorists here are aggressive, have no patience and feel nothing for the biker, hence our THINK BIKE campaign.

Trying to get women to understand that it is safer to ride with the flow is a major obstacle to overcome.
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#16 Unread post by Hondagirl » Wed Sep 22, 2010 5:40 am

Give them lots of sincere praise when they get something right, or even almost right :) . That boosts confidence as women tend to believe it where men might think you are being sarcastic . :dontgetit:
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#17 Unread post by sapaul » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:43 am

Thanks Ladies, I really appreciate the input and have noted your points and hopefully will be able to use them constructively.

Now where is that Rhino hide whip

Come here wenches, this is the first part of your lesson, now bend .....................................
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A touch of insanity crept back in the shape of an R1200R

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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#18 Unread post by jstark47 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 8:44 pm

sapaul wrote:Now where is that Rhino hide whip

Come here wenches, this is the first part of your lesson, now bend .....................................
Does the Goose read this stuff? You better hope not!!! :bash:
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#19 Unread post by blues2cruise » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:17 am

jstark47 wrote:
sapaul wrote:Now where is that Rhino hide whip

Come here wenches, this is the first part of your lesson, now bend .....................................
Does the Goose read this stuff? You better hope not!!! :bash:
jstark.....enlightened man..... :D
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Re: Help please, Ladies training

#20 Unread post by sapaul » Mon Sep 27, 2010 1:29 am

Ladies, Ladies,

thank you, the first training went off really well. I had 5 girls and 8 trainers and it worked out really well. We used some of my Marshals as route markers and after the theory we spent time on the road putting into practice what we discussed. Your tip on not getting into big discussions worked. I found the girls actually wanted to get busy after the theory and all wanted to do more when we said stop. really good day, thanks for the inputs
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