Dissed due to my ride for the first time

[-Holiday]

On the other side of things, the American manufacturers continue to downsize their plants and lay off workers.

Yes... because of traitors like you! Seriously though... it is more than supporting the economy... when people say "buy American" it doesn't mean buy a product that is made in America... but where the company started, where it's corporate offices are... and where all of the people who "make" the product are from... I don't mean assemble or put together, but the people behind the ideas, the people who do the research & development, the engineers etc etc etc.

That'd be Honda. There are dozens of R&D centers in the area, one right across the street from my apartment. The people who assemble all the bikes live right here in Marysville, and the engineers are up the street in the auto plant. You can't get much more American than Honda.

As for this whole debate, it's about what you go shopping for. For me, I shopped for a bike, not a brand. I knew what I wanted out of a bike, and I went looking for the one that would meet my wants and needs. At one time the Sportster 1200 was on the list, as was the Warrior and VTX1800. I had never owner a Kawasaki and had no brand loyalty for them. In fact, I had owned nothing but Honda motorcycles prior and had owned two Honda ATV's and one Yamaha. As it turned out, the Streak had the right fit and features all offered at the right price. Now, knowing what I can get for $11,000.00, I could never justify purchasing a Harley. Yes, there is definitely something about them...something unquantifiable...but in the end I'm gonna shop for the right features-to-value ratio. But, just as not everyone drinks the same beer, not everyone shops using my reasoning. And for many, that certain je ne sais quoi that Harley possesses is worth every penny. Nobody is wrong, we're all just different. If we weren't, the Chinese buffet wouldn't be a very appealing place to eat now would it?

As for the snobs, I am seeing more and more groups of these guys popping up on all sorts of makes and models. Yeah, I still get snubbed by plenty of Harley guys who will accept my compliment but have nothing to say in return, but I have also seen it in VTX1800 owners, the crotch-rocket crowd, and especially from Warrior owners. If these guys didn't buy their bikes based on what they wanted or needed from a ride, then they bought one to represent an image they wish to portray to the rest of the world. If that's what you want to do, it's your cash.

i agree with evetything you just said.

There is no loyalty in Capitolism. In fact, to me, loyalty have very little to do with what corporation gets my money.

Hey Zoo, you're in Izzard fan? He's one of my favorites! Hilarious guy.

[-Holiday]

back on subject, kinda:

why does harley even need to make the bikes themselves all that competitive with the japanese and euro bikes? I mean, such a huge percentage of the revenue comes from non-bikes sales. From a business perspective, their bikes dont have to be the best to make them money. They just have to have the sound, look, and feel like a harley. its a complete aestetic thing, and in my opinion, comparing a harley to a japanese, or a bmw bike just isnt created very even in that respect.


How many people do you see wearing Honda Motorcycle apparel that dont own one?

Harley has no pressure to make their bikes better then the competition as long as they keep selling those hats, and stickers that go on the back of pickup trucks.

I dont think any of that makes a harley, or a honda any more of less of a motorcycle then the other though. They just are, afterall, businesses out to make a profit.

[earwig]

why does harley even need to make the bikes themselves all that competitive with the japanese and euro bikes

Heh... they have to continue to compete for obvious reasons, if they pump out junk and don't compete, less and less people will buy their bikes. Yeah they make a lot of money from accessories and clothing etc. but they still have to make quality bikes.

[-Holiday]

why does harley even need to make the bikes themselves all that competitive with the japanese and euro bikes

Heh... they have to continue to compete for obvious reasons, if they pump out junk and don't compete, less and less people will buy their bikes. Yeah they make a lot of money from accessories and clothing etc. but they still have to make quality bikes.

thats just it though, i didnt say they made junk. But what I am saying is that their bikes dont have to be BETTER then the others because the actual bikes arent the bread and butter of thier business. At very least, there isnt as much pressure to make Harleys the BEST bikes out there, especally when it comes to performace, cornering, things that people dont buy them for.

[Bachstrad37]

why does harley even need to make the bikes themselves all that competitive with the japanese and euro bikes

Heh... they have to continue to compete for obvious reasons, if they pump out junk and don't compete, less and less people will buy their bikes. Yeah they make a lot of money from accessories and clothing etc. but they still have to make quality bikes.

I completely agree with you on this, Earwig. To stay in the game, you have to compete. There's nothing cool about wearing a T-shirt from a company that don't give two shats about their product. Vintage T-shirts dating back to the glory days are the exception. As for the Harley motorcycles, I think that V-Rod (and many sub-levels of that bike) is an amazing piece of engineering and art at all levels. From the Harley shops I've visited, that's the spotlight bike. They need to expand that line and create mini V-Rods. Kinda like Apple with their smaller IPods.

[earwig]

At very least, there isnt as much pressure to make Harleys the BEST bikes out there, especally when it comes to performace, cornering, things that people dont buy them for.

Well I think it makes them an even better company if they compete in these areas even if they don't have to. I think many people do buy them for their performance also... Harley isn't what it was 20 years ago, a lot of people can't get that out of their head. Go demo a new Harley and you will be impressed on how it handles. Buell is "owned" by Harley, and by them buying Buell and dumping so much time, money and R&D into the brand I think it shows they realize that people want performance also. I bought my Buell because of how it handles/rides... when I first saw it I thought it was ugly as hell, but once I rode it I was in bike love with it Now I can't see owning anything different... of course I test ride every bike I can and go to every single demo for every company... if I come across something that makes me smile from ear to ear like my bike does I might have a decision to make when its time for a new motorcycle.

[-Holiday]

At very least, there isnt as much pressure to make Harleys the BEST bikes out there, especally when it comes to performace, cornering, things that people dont buy them for.

Well I think it makes them an even better company if they compete in these areas even if they don't have to. I think many people do buy them for their performance also... Harley isn't what it was 20 years ago, a lot of people can't get that out of their head. Go demo a new Harley and you will be impressed on how it handles. Buell is "owned" by Harley, and buy them buying Buell and dumping so much time, money and R&D into the brand I think shows they realize that people want performance also. I bought my Buell because of how it handles... when I first saw it I thought it was ugly as hell, but once I rode it I was in bike love with it Now I can't see owning anything different... of course I test ride every bike I can and go to every single demo for every company... if I come across something that makes me smile from ear to ear like my bike does I might have a decision to make when its time for a new motorcycle.

i agree with you. and i never said they were a bad company, quite the contrary. They're sucessfull in large part due to thier marketing department and the image they've created. I dont think anyone can argue that.

I actually have nothing against harley, im just saying I can understand from a purely business example why it would be acceptable that in reality, they dont have the highest performing bikes out there. Because they dont have to. Of course the company will continue to develop, and try to get into other markets within the motorcycle industry (buell) , but I can guarantee you that the Harley Business model would not be the same were it not for the American Image they portray, which is not based on performance.

[jstark47]

back on subject, kinda:

why does harley even need to make the bikes themselves all that competitive with the japanese and euro bikes? I mean, such a huge percentage of the revenue comes from non-bikes sales...............Harley has no pressure to make their bikes better then the competition as long as they keep selling those hats, and stickers that go on the back of pickup trucks.

I think this "huge percentage of revenue from non-bike sales" has become a bit of an urban legend. Let's take a look at Harley's 2005 business results. Gross revenues from sales:

Harley Davidson bikes: $4,183,500,000 78.3% (yeah, that's 4 billion )
Parts and Accessories: $815,700,000 15.3%
Merchandise (includes Motorclothes): $248,900,000 4.7%
Buell bikes: $93,100,000 1.7%
Miscellaneous: $2,000,000

There's also $191,600,000 in operating income from Harley Davidson Financial Services.

248 million bucks from clothes, hat, stickers, etc. is nothing to sneeze at, but it's less than 5% of their income. The lack of pressure to make the bikes 'competitive' (assuming one accepts the premise of that statement) comes from the demand for the bikes themselves. More than 325,000 bikes shipped in 2005, somebody sure wants them. Harley is a cash engine at the moment. Whatever you think of their bikes, branding, etc, there's no doubting their business acumen so far. Hopefully the management will continue to make correct business decisions.....

[earwig]

This is from their 2005 Financial Report:

Revenue from sales of Harley-Davidson® motorcycles grew
to $4.2 billion in 2005, an increase of 6.5 percent over 2004.
In 2005, Harley-Davidson motorcycle shipments were a record
329,000 units, up 3.7 percent over 2004. Buell motorcycle
revenue of $93 million was up 17.8 percent. Revenue of Genuine
Parts and Accessories in 2005 totaled $815.7 million, a 4.4
percent increase over the previous year, and General Merchandise
revenue was $247.9 million, an increase of 10.8 percent compared
to 2004.

http://www.harley-davidson.com/en_US/Me ... cale=en_US

[earwig]

Wow... look at all of these Harley sweat shops!

WISCONSIN - Metro-Milwaukee
POWERTRAIN OPERATIONS - CAPITOL DRIVE - Located in Wauwatosa, WI, a suburb of Milwaukee, the employees at this facility manufacture XL model engines and transmissions, remanufacture Evolution powertrains and produce current and non-current replacement parts.

PARTS AND ACCESSORIES DISTRIBUTION CENTER (DC) - Located in Franklin, WI, a suburb of Milwaukee, the DC manages the worldwide distribution of Harley-Davidson parts and accessories to dealers and distributors.

HARLEY-DAVIDSON JUNEAU AVENUE - Located at Juneau Avenue in Milwaukee, WI, this facility is the corporate headquarters and sales offices of Harley-Davidson.

WILLIE G. DAVIDSON PRODUCT DEVELOPMENT CENTER (PDC) - Located in Wauwatosa, WI, a suburb of Milwaukee, the PDC is the research and development facility for Harley-Davidson, delivering quality designs for future products.

POWERTRAIN OPERATIONS - PILGRIM ROAD - Located in Menomonee Falls, WI, a suburb of Milwaukee, the employees at this facility manufacture the Softail®, Dyna Glide and Touring model powertrains.

WISCONSIN - Northern
TOMAHAWK OPERATIONS - Located in Tomahawk, WI, this facility manufactures and finishes windshields, sidecars, and any additional composite and plastic parts.

MISSOURI
VEHICLE AND POWERTRAIN OPERATIONS - Located in Kansas City, MO, this facility produces the powertrains for V-Rod® motorcycles and assembles the Dyna Glide, Sportster® and VRSC™ models.

ALABAMA
TALLADEGA TEST FACILITY - Located in Lincoln, AL, Talladega is the site of motorcycle testing services related to motorcycle development, performance, validation and certification.

PENNSYLVANIA
VEHICLE OPERATIONS - Located in York, PA, this facility provides machining fabrication, paint and final assembly of all Softail® and Touring models. The employees at York also manufacture current and non-current replacement parts and build limited edition, factory-custom motorcycles.