Riding with a noob - who rides in front?

[Flting Duck]

OK, here's the scenario: I'm 47 with tens of thousands of miles under my belt and have been riding for years. After gving my brother(42) a few rides, he decided that he doesn't like riding on the back (big surprise) so he decided to take up riding.

I found him a used bike, helped him pick out some safety gear, and had him take MSF BRC to get some basics and get legally licensed. At that point he was fully qualified to ride around a parking lot at 20mph.

After that, I took him out to a local large empty parking lot and had several two hour sessions with him having him do a variety of drills. I also put him out on a local, non-busy street for an hour or so at a time to practice shifting and braking and get those somewhat built into his "muscle memory."

Then it was time for him to hit the streets. Fortunately, we have nearby a long road along a lake with a low speed limit, no cross traffic and varying turns which seems to be a good road for our little training rides.

So, here's the rub:

I'd always heard that when riding with noobs that the least experienced rider was supposed to ride in the front. We tried this on our first ride and it went disastrously. No accidents or anything but he hept fixating on his speedo and worrying about how fast he was going, braking all of the time, being paranoid about going too fast, not looking far enough ahead and generally being a total dork. In fact, it got to the point where I just didn't think it was safe so I ended the ride mid-way, took him home on my bike and then went back and got his bike. (Boy, was he mad! Although I finally got it through his thick skull that the reason I called it off was for his safety.)

So, for the next ride, after teaching him a few hand signals, I took the lead. Things went MUCH better. (I also put some tape over his speedo and wrote the words "LOOK UP, RELAX, BE SMOOTH".in large letters on the tape. His new acronym is now LURBS ) When we hit turns, what I do is really goose it around the corner on my bike and told him ahead of time NOT to keep up with me in the turns but to feel out his bike and take the turn at a speed that is comfortable for him. Then I slow way down after the turn so he has a chance to catch up.

So, at least for a total noob like my brother, I've come to the conclusion that it's best for the more experienced rider to be in front. Some of my observaions on why this works better (at least for my brother and me):

1) He doesn't have to worry about speed and keep looking down at his speedo. I've promised him that I will NOT go more than 5 over.

2) I don't have to worry about him not seeing what dangers (e.g. pedestrians or cars) lie ahead as I am essentially blazing the trail.

3) He doesn't have to worry about navigation. (There are a few options for turns, etc... on our traning route.)

4) I have pretty decent mirrors and since we're only riding in the 25-35 range, I can watch his technique for giving him pointers.

5) Since I"m in the lead, if I do see any glaring mistakes on his part, I can pull us over at the next safe spot and give him a little mid-ride debriefing. Even if I don't see any glaring mistakes on his part, I do pull over every once in a while so he can relax, get some minor pointers from me and ask any questions he has.

I suppose that after a few more of these rides, I'll put him in the lead but for now, having the more experienced rider in the lead seems to work much better for us.

Just curious about the experiences of others who have helped someone else learn to ride.

[IcyHound]

I'm the opposite. I figured it would be better to ride behind my boyfriend who has more experience. I promptly wrecked 15 minutes into the ride at the first left hand turn across a street because I was trying to keep up with him and took the corner to fast for my own comfort. It was not a fast ride, I was just a sparkling new rider with a lot to think about. We where going to practice since we had just gotten our lisences a few hours ago.

It depends on the person. I have a lot of driving habits to get rid of. One of them is keeping up with someone you are following. Its not a problem now but sadly I had to go down to fully click over into the bike mentality.

[DivideOverflow]

The reason noobs go in the front is so they aren't tempted to try and keep up. Also, do you want him crashing into the back of you? If he is in front, you can at least avoid his tumbling body.

Your points are very valid for reasons for you to take the lead, but it honestly sounds like he wasn't ready to be on the road. Some people just learn at different paces than others. If he can't ride safely in front, then he can't ride safely solo, and shouldn't be on public roads.

[Fast Eddy B]

If you can keep your speed at a reasonable rate, right at the speed limit is best, then if you are teaching, the most experienced rider should be at the front.

For group rides, they have a different take on things. Most exp. in the back? Second most at front? Not sure....I'm not a group rider.

To set a pace, and model the lines of corners, you need to be seen. In front.

Then, switch it up for a short spell to observe, give some pointers, and go back to teaching from the front again.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

[Ninja Geoff]

I'm going to have to agree with Mr Duck, the noob goes second. The experiance rider knows what to look for and should explain in detail the different "Oh "poo poo", there's stuff in the road" signals. And the experiance rider should be mature and responsible enough to take it nice and easy for the noob. Now, when they finally get some miles under, let them take the lead. By that time they should have the whole clutch, shift, throttle, brake, throttle, shift, throttle, brake, glance at the speed, shift dance down enough to be able to watch the road at the same time. I hope to some day be able to lead one of my friends down a nice road I know well. I know at least 6 people who've mentioned to me at one point or another that they want to get a motorcycle.

Though, I think best case scenario would be to have a 3rd rider who knows there stuff to be able to observe from behind.

[Flting Duck]

The reason noobs go in the front is so they aren't tempted to try and keep up. Also, do you want him crashing into the back of you? If he is in front, you can at least avoid his tumbling body.

Your points are very valid for reasons for you to take the lead, but it honestly sounds like he wasn't ready to be on the road. Some people just learn at different paces than others. If he can't ride safely in front, then he can't ride safely solo, and shouldn't be on public roads.

Your points are well taken. I think a lot of it was nerves. He was doing great in the parking lot ; full lock turns, hard turns from a stop (to simulate right turns from a stop on the street), stopping at a specific pont, shifting up and down pretty smoothly, clutch & throttle control, not braking in turns, etc...)

At some point though you have to make the transtion from parking lot to street and they're very different worlds. I"m noot sure if anyone can instantly make the transition from parking lot to street.

I think that having me go in front made him less nervous since he didn't have to worry as much about monitoring speed, navigation and identifying potential hazards.

[DivideOverflow]

The reason noobs go in the front is so they aren't tempted to try and keep up. Also, do you want him crashing into the back of you? If he is in front, you can at least avoid his tumbling body.

Your points are very valid for reasons for you to take the lead, but it honestly sounds like he wasn't ready to be on the road. Some people just learn at different paces than others. If he can't ride safely in front, then he can't ride safely solo, and shouldn't be on public roads.

Your points are well taken. I think a lot of it was nerves. He was doing great in the parking lot ; full lock turns, hard turns from a stop (to simulate right turns from a stop on the street), stopping at a specific pont, shifting up and down pretty smoothly, clutch & throttle control, not braking in turns, etc...)

At some point though you have to make the transtion from parking lot to street and they're very different worlds. I"m noot sure if anyone can instantly make the transition from parking lot to street.

I think that having me go in front made him less nervous since he didn't have to worry as much about monitoring speed, navigation and identifying potential hazards.

Yeah, that makes sense. Also, the slower riders in front thing are generally once they are past the "OMG I'm freaking out!" stage. Also, that is generally referring to groups of a couple people. That way the leaders don't leave the slower riders behind. However, most groups have their own preferences.

For example, in my riding group, we have two sections. The fast group rides in the front, leaves the slow group in the dust, and then waits at the next stopsign or appropriate area. The slower group (normally headed up by me), stays closer to the speed limit. I also don't like people riding close to me. The slower group stays more spread out, since it is easy to stay in visual range around the speed limit.

[hi-side]

I prefer to ride behind until I get a feel for the newer person's skills and pace, then pull in front and try to maintain their pace... not mine, then lead for awhile, and swap a couple of times to again gauge their pace and skills.

[dr_bar]

I've always let the noob take the lead to set their own pace. It may not be the best, but it does force them to learn the realities of the road sooner.

I did like duck's idea of scooting ahead in the corners though. I still fixate on a bike in front of me while going through the twisties, damn bad habit that I'm trying really hard to break. I learned it way back when I was learning to ride because I had to follow some one that was teaching me the ropes...

[Kal]

Over here we have the CBT which we must take before we can do anything.

First part of the CBT is earning how to control the bike - roughly 3 to 4 hours doing cone exercises and preparing for the road with junctions drill etc.

All of the rest of our training up to a full unrestricted licence is done on the roads. The only time I as the student was not in front is when my instuctor called time for reasons of safety much like you did.

It isn't just the pressure to keep up which puts our instructors behind us, but it is also so they can see our observations, lifesavers, gearchanges, bikes attitude in the corners all of which takes us that little bit closer to being a good and safe rider.

So yes I'd say in a student/instructor relationship the student should generally be at the front.