First Ride In Traffic
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jstark47
- Site Supporter - Silver
- Posts: 3538
- Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:58 pm
- Sex: Male
- Years Riding: 16
- My Motorcycle: '12 Tiger 800, '03 Trophy 1200
- Location: Lumberton, NJ
Hi, ANDS! I'm going to try to word this very carefully. 
First, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I recognize and respect the effort and care you're putting into learning to ride. I also understand there's more than one school of thought about the MSF BRC - it's certainly not "necessary" in the sense that you'll automatically fail if you don't take it.
That said, I agree with jonnythan - friction zone is a really fundamental concept. Besides the basic act of getting the bike rolling from a stop, mastery of the friction zone is used when feathering the clutch in very low speed maneuvers. There are also advanced techniques that require this mastery.
Yes, you can teach it to yourself, or learn about from another rider, or study it in a book. And yes, you don't have to know the words to intuitively understand and apply the concept. However, MSF BRC does have a really good way of breaking these concepts down into the basics, then putting them together into the 'total package' in a way that's quick and efficient for the majority (I didn't say 'all') of new riders. I think with a bit of bike experience you're at the point now where you could really appreciate, enjoy, and benefit from the MSF experience.
Good luck to you, whether you take the course or not. We're all rooting for you to succeed, keep the questions coming!
First, I'm not trying to rain on your parade. I recognize and respect the effort and care you're putting into learning to ride. I also understand there's more than one school of thought about the MSF BRC - it's certainly not "necessary" in the sense that you'll automatically fail if you don't take it.That said, I agree with jonnythan - friction zone is a really fundamental concept. Besides the basic act of getting the bike rolling from a stop, mastery of the friction zone is used when feathering the clutch in very low speed maneuvers. There are also advanced techniques that require this mastery.
Yes, you can teach it to yourself, or learn about from another rider, or study it in a book. And yes, you don't have to know the words to intuitively understand and apply the concept. However, MSF BRC does have a really good way of breaking these concepts down into the basics, then putting them together into the 'total package' in a way that's quick and efficient for the majority (I didn't say 'all') of new riders. I think with a bit of bike experience you're at the point now where you could really appreciate, enjoy, and benefit from the MSF experience.
Good luck to you, whether you take the course or not. We're all rooting for you to succeed, keep the questions coming!
2003 Triumph Trophy 1200
2009 BMW F650GS (wife's)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800
2018 Yamaha XT250 (wife's)
2013 Kawasaki KLX250S
2009 BMW F650GS (wife's)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800
2018 Yamaha XT250 (wife's)
2013 Kawasaki KLX250S
ANDS! wrote:Interesting, never had a single person tell me thats the preferred method of take-off, or at the least gave it a name. And I'm not stalling all the time, but probably the times where Im NOT doing this, and I dont know it.
Tower18 described it nicely. That's how I work my clutch as well. My 250 likes to roll easy out of the gate. Use your forward momentum you your advantage was using the clutch and throttle.
Go to the parking lot and just practice doing starts and stops to practice clutch.
Dont get me wrong, Im not anti-MSF in any way, but I dont want to give the impression that I'm just rolling in straight lines out there. I no doubt hit a spot were I over/underthought what I was doing, and got sloppy, and blamed it on the mechanics.
I'll hit up MSF - but not before making sure Im not about to drop 250 bones and F-Up and not pass. In the meantime Ill kick my "trainer" in the "O Ring", and ask him why he didnt specifically tell me about the FZ.
Further traffic observation - people in large vehicles seem to demand the Right-Of-Way, even when they dont have it; which sucks, because I instinctively - because of my greenness - want to give it to them, when I shouldnt because well, they wouldnt to me.
I'll hit up MSF - but not before making sure Im not about to drop 250 bones and F-Up and not pass. In the meantime Ill kick my "trainer" in the "O Ring", and ask him why he didnt specifically tell me about the FZ.
Further traffic observation - people in large vehicles seem to demand the Right-Of-Way, even when they dont have it; which sucks, because I instinctively - because of my greenness - want to give it to them, when I shouldnt because well, they wouldnt to me.
At this point in time, I more like than not to just say "F It" - get to your KFC faster lady. . .and let them go. But sheesh, youd think I stuck a knife in their sides the looks some of these people get - I'm glad I walked/public-transported as long as I did, makes me appreciate not trying to rush through things just to shave some seconds off.
On a happy note, I stalled once, but that was due to me being in 2nd gear - I was chatting up some dude next to me (at a LONG light) who was asking about my bike. . .wah wah waaaaaaah -
And on a funny note. . .as I was going down that long street to get home, I noticed people in front slowing down, even though the light was green and me wondering "What the hell is going on" - two cops on bikes behind a sign just waiting to bust Broadway Speed Demons.
On a happy note, I stalled once, but that was due to me being in 2nd gear - I was chatting up some dude next to me (at a LONG light) who was asking about my bike. . .wah wah waaaaaaah -
And on a funny note. . .as I was going down that long street to get home, I noticed people in front slowing down, even though the light was green and me wondering "What the hell is going on" - two cops on bikes behind a sign just waiting to bust Broadway Speed Demons.
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jonnythan
- Site Supporter - Platinum
- Posts: 2470
- Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 8:08 am
- Sex: Male
- My Motorcycle: Year/Make/Model
If you have your license passing is meaningless. You obviously lack some fundamental skills and IMO are an unnecessarily large danger to both yourself and others.ANDS! wrote:Dont get me wrong, Im not anti-MSF in any way, but I dont want to give the impression that I'm just rolling in straight lines out there. I no doubt hit a spot were I over/underthought what I was doing, and got sloppy, and blamed it on the mechanics.
I'll hit up MSF - but not before making sure Im not about to drop 250 bones and F-Up and not pass. In the meantime Ill kick my "trainer" in the "O Ring", and ask him why he didnt specifically tell me about the FZ.
Further traffic observation - people in large vehicles seem to demand the Right-Of-Way, even when they dont have it; which sucks, because I instinctively - because of my greenness - want to give it to them, when I shouldnt because well, they wouldnt to me.
I remember hearing several places that people taught by non-professionals are *more* likely to get into fatal accidents than those with no teaching whatsoever.
Your current "trainer" is clearly completely incompetent if he has not taught you how to actually get the bike rolling from a stop, how to perform low-speed maneuvers. I'm sure there's more he hasn't taught you.
Please, please consider some professional instruction. You're out there on the road in traffic and are clearly totally missing some truly fundamental skills. I'm not trying to be a jerk.
BTW, it is also my strong opinion that it makes no sense to practice riding *before* taking MSF. MSF is stupid easy, and furthermore, you will be simply ingraining habits that you will have to break in the class. MSF class teaches you each fundamental skill from the ground up and creates an entire package for you.
[url=http://www.flickr.com/photos/jonnythan/sets/]Flickr.[/url]
Naw, just a permit to ride. I was going to take the test the same day I got that - but decided against it, since retaking it is a pain.
The guy (a friend actually), isnt an incompotent rider. . .he may not be the best teacher however and instead of by-the-book instruction, relies more on intuitive teaching.
And again, on the 50 or so complete stops I've had to do, I'd say I crapped out about 6 or 7 times, and Im sure Ill crap out again - only reason I asked initially is because it seemed to occur at an infrequent rate that (to me at least) might have suggested something was wrong - with the bike and not me. I do take everything though folks say, so no one is just whistling Dixie here.
The guy (a friend actually), isnt an incompotent rider. . .he may not be the best teacher however and instead of by-the-book instruction, relies more on intuitive teaching.
And again, on the 50 or so complete stops I've had to do, I'd say I crapped out about 6 or 7 times, and Im sure Ill crap out again - only reason I asked initially is because it seemed to occur at an infrequent rate that (to me at least) might have suggested something was wrong - with the bike and not me. I do take everything though folks say, so no one is just whistling Dixie here.
And you should remember, unlike a car, most bikes have wet clutches. "feathering" or as my old man drilled into me when i was trying to learn to drive a stick "riding the clutch" isn't remotely as bad in a bike as it is in a car.
And if I can ask, when you do stall, are you tending to think about what you're doing before you do it? I mean, you're at a light and think.... I hope i don't stall. then do.
Do you tend to roll away from successful stops when you're more distracted by other vehicles? Road conditions etc....
I tend to do pretty much everything that way. From configuring a router, to getting dressed in the mornings. If i stop and try to Think through what I'm doing I almost invariable screw it up, If I let that backside alligator brain take over and just do, I do fairly well.
And if I can ask, when you do stall, are you tending to think about what you're doing before you do it? I mean, you're at a light and think.... I hope i don't stall. then do.
Do you tend to roll away from successful stops when you're more distracted by other vehicles? Road conditions etc....
I tend to do pretty much everything that way. From configuring a router, to getting dressed in the mornings. If i stop and try to Think through what I'm doing I almost invariable screw it up, If I let that backside alligator brain take over and just do, I do fairly well.
Pretty much - especially at the front of the line (in fact, now that I think about it - thats the only time I've crapped out). Other times Im not even thinking about it and - perfecto! - away we go!And if I can ask, when you do stall, are you tending to think about what you're doing before you do it? I mean, you're at a light and think.... I hope i don't stall. then do.
HAHA! - Yea. . .Im actually singing to myself in my head most times, or thinking about ways to stretch a paycheck, what to eat, how much I hate my boss, if that female is checking me out. . .o-0Do you tend to roll away from successful stops when you're more distracted by other vehicles? Road conditions etc....