slowing down -- downshift, brake, or both?

[avoidalliteration]

I'm gonna go with Phat_J and Jonnythan on this one. I do a hybrid of the two when I'm coming to a stop. If it's an anticipated stop:

1. I engine brake until I drop below 4k on the tach (which is usually when the engine-braking loses effect on my bike)
2. Disengage the clutch and start slowing with both brakes
2a. During step 2, I start down-shifting to match engine speed so that I can get myself out of any sticky situations
3. I'm in 1st by the time I've stopped

Emergency stops:
1. Clutch disengaged, jam both brakes without locking up while down-shifting rapidly to roughly match engine speed (i.e. how MSF taught us to do it)

I know that my friends who drive manual transmission cars tend to clutch in until the stop before switching to 1st (then again, being rear-ended is not as life-threatening to them as it is to me on the bike), but I've heard that engine braking wears on the clutch in a car more b/c it's not "wet" like a bike's clutch? Anyone know if there's any truth to that?

[scan]

I know that my friends who drive manual transmission cars tend to clutch in until the stop before switching to 1st (then again, being rear-ended is not as life-threatening to them as it is to me on the bike), but I've heard that engine braking wears on the clutch in a car more b/c it's not "wet" like a bike's clutch? Anyone know if there's any truth to that?

That is correct. This is why I think staying in the right gear for your speed is critical, but you do have to consider your type of bike. For V-twins the torque curve comes on early, so downshifting causes less braking effect, and you don't need to downshift as much since the power is on at lower RPMs. For example, when you are in 3rd of 4th gear, you can be pretty slow and still climb out without lugging the engine.

On an inline 4 you have torque happening higher in the RPM band, and also more braking effect going from higher RPM to lower. If you let it lug too low on an inline 4 you will start to hurt the engine, so you have to shift more. For me that is the fun of riding my bike really. So some of this does depend on your bike's behavior. In my case, I use my engine braking to slow me down most of the time and rarely use my brakes - instead I plan early to slow down. I think by not hitting my clutch hard, or my brakes, I don't wear out anything very fast. I match my RPMs the best I can when I shift.

[Nalian]

I use both. On the sporty I used both brakes, on my ninja I pretty much only use the rear brake lightly in turns. It is extremely easy to lock up the rear on this bike so I very rarely use it.

[Nibblet99]

use both, engine and brake


here is a test for you


find a marker (ie spot on the road, sign post etc) approach it at 20-25mph (second gear), pull the clutch in and brake firmly to stop in as short as possible distance as you can with out throwing your self off your bike or locking the front wheel
(use front brake for this exercise). check the stopping distance.

now

do the same thing again, but this time dont use the clutch, just apply the front brake, you can clutch just as you come to a halt to prevent stalling but stalling doent matter for this...now check your brake distance..ill gaurentee its probably near half the distance with the second application.

engine and brake at the same time is the most effective stopping power you have.

Why aren't you using the rear brake? Obviously the second exercise will stop you in a shorter distance, but:

1) In the second exercise, you are braking at the rear wheel as well as the front wheel, as opposed to just the front wheel in the first.
2) The braking distance will probably be much closer to 1/4 or 1/3 less than 1/2.

How can engine braking possibly be more effective than using the rear brake when it's possible to completely lock up the rear wheel with the rear brake?

It seems to me that engine braking would be more effective than simply not using the rear brake, but the rear brake should absolutely be more effective than engine braking.

Surely this is the reason MSF teaches you to yank in the clutch and use both brakes for maximum braking exercises.

Over here we're taught (for emergency stops) the maximum efficientcy method of braking

1. Apply front brake
2. Apply some rear brake
3. Progressively apply more front brake
4. Just before the engine stalls, pull in the clutch
5. When stopped, work your bike down to first gear
6. Check all around you
7. Pull to the side of the road out of the way.

The idea is threefold
1. You are utilising all 3 brakes to slow the bike
2. You are progressively applying the front brake strongest of the 3. Using this causes the front wheel to effectively press into the ground, increasing the amount of grip at the front wheel, and hence, the ability for it to take even more braking force without slipping
3. As the engine is still engaged, it assists with braking, but also provides some drive to the rear wheel preventing it from locking up. (remember as the front of the bike is being pressed into the ground, the rear gets much much lighter, and by consequence far easier to lock up)


Hope this provides something to think about. I understand the MSF applies more towards a reasonable amount of braking and a quick getaway after stopping, whereas in Britain the emphasis is on stopping in the shortest distance possible

[Flting Duck]

For maximum braking on the rear wheel:

The crtical factor is how much static friction you have at the contact patch - whether you're using the engine, the rear brake, or both - the coefficient of static friction is the same. (the point where the rear breaks loose and the contact becomes dynamic friction instead - yes, you still have traction when the rear breaks loose - it's just a LOT less than static friction)

My opinion is that for a noob, pulling in the clutch and applying both brakes is the best route. The reason being that when you're using both the engine and the rear brake together, you need to be at the point where you're on the verge of breaking the rear loose. If you're a noob, then you're going to have to balance the apliication of the rear brake with the engine braking. I suspect that most noobs aren't that in touch with their bikes yet. Also, if you downshift and let the clutch out too quickly with the rear brake applied, then that pulse might be enough to break rear wheel traction. Hence, I suspect this is why MSF would recommend pulling in the cluthc and just using the brake for the rear.

(The above assumes that you have a decent rear brake that has enough stopping power to skid the rear. If not, then engine braking with the rear brake will give you more stopping power.)

That was just for maximum braking.

For "normal" braking:

I sometimes downshift and engaqe the clutch in each gear but sometimes not, like when coasting up to a stop sign or light - then I just use the brakes and downshift through the gears without engaging the clutch.

I always use both brakes, even if only a little on the rear. The reason being that if I for some reason need to stop much sooner than I'd expected(car in front of you was slowing normally but then slams on his brakes for some reason), my foot is already on the rear brake and I don't waste the 1/2 to 2/3 of a second that it takes to react and get my foot on the brake in a "panic" stop siuation. That can save you a few feet and can make the difference between hitting something (e.g. the car in front of you) and stopping two feet short of it.

[scan]

Real good point Duck, about keeping on the rear and the front, even if only applying a little rear. I'm basially the same way, even when downshifting to a stop, I'm ready with both brakes in-case they are needed. Also when talking about maximum braking, never stop practicing that, because when you really need it, you can't think about what to do, you have to just react instantly.

Engine braking is a more advanced idea, but one I enjoy playing with myself. I also using different amounts of different kinds of braking depending on what I'm doing. Trail braking lightly sometimes, front only for some situations, engine braking for others, but I think spending a few years on one bike tends to make you at one with the machine and stop thinking about a lot of this stuff.