Beginners Countersteering Article Problems

[shane-o]

you will instinctively countersteer while riding whether you realise your doing it or not, its not something that requires teaching its an automatic occurance, if you want to go left you input into the bars what ever it takes to turn left and you will do it without thinking about it

This isn't quite true. It's true if you learned to ride a bike, but if you haven't, it isn't second nature. This is why riding a bike takes a period of time to learn.

Just thought I'd nitpick.

hmmmmm, well let me see.

if you need to turn left (bike or motorbike) what are you going to do? are going to use a method that makes the bike turn left or are you going to use a method that sends you right? your going choose the one that means you go left arnt you, you can call those inputs "suck me off with a second hand yabbie pump" it makes no diff', you will employ what ever strategy that sees you going in the direction you want instinctively, whether you have ridden a bike before or not countersteering is just the term used to describe the inputs used to turn in a direction above a certain speed due largely to gyro forces, but you dont need to know that to do it, becuase you will just do it !

[Wrider]

So let me see if I can summarize two pages of posts...

1. The wheels of a motorcycle, combined with brake rotors, sprockets, etc, work as a gyroscope to keep your bike up at speed.

2. The lower the speed, the less the gyroscopic effects, therefore, the harder the bike is to keep up.

3. When you countersteer, we're not quite sure if it's natural, learned, or just a byproduct of physics when we lean, but it works really well.

4. Countersteering does work anywhere above ab 5-10 mph. Below that, not so much...

5. Generally speaking, it's the best way to turn, and we all enjoy doing it!

Anyone have anything else to add?
Wrider

[sv-wolf]

So let me see if I can summarize two pages of posts...

1. The wheels of a motorcycle, combined with brake rotors, sprockets, [Ed. crankshaft too.*] etc, work as a gyroscope [Ed. and might or might not]... keep your bike up at speed.

2. The lower the speed, the less the gyroscopic effects [Ed. or possibly the fewer the dynamic effects of steering geometry], therefore, the harder the bike is to keep up.

3. When you countersteer, we're not quite sure if it's natural, learned, or just a byproduct of physics when we lean, but it works really well.

4. Countersteering does work anywhere above ab 5-10 mph. Below that, not so much...

5. Generally speaking, it's the best way to turn, and we all enjoy doing it!

Anyone have anything else to add?
Wrider

*Was it Yamaha that designed a bike with a counter-rotating crankshaft to try to offset the gyroscopic effects of the wheels and give it sharper handling? I don't remember. Someone did.

Yep, the nits are still picking here. There's frezik's original question about whether gyroscopic progression keeps a bike upright or whether something else is responsible.

Granted, it's of no essential interest to a motorcyclist, but who says the world has to end when you get off your bike? In my view it's the most interesting point that has been raised so far.

[Fast Eddy B]

*Was it Yamaha that designed a bike with a counter-rotating crankshaft to try to offset the gyroscopic effects of the wheels and give it sharper handling? I don't remember. Someone did.

Kawasaki ran a backwards rotating crankshaft on their 2006 ZX-RR 990cc MotoGP bike to counteract the gyro forces of the wheels/rotors. Unless you go kneedown at 20,000 rpm at 150 mph, you don't need this on your own bike. Unless you like how it looks!

Ed

[shane-o]

So let me see if I can summarize two pages of posts...

1. The wheels of a motorcycle, combined with brake rotors, sprockets, etc, work as a gyroscope to keep your bike up at speed.

2. The lower the speed, the less the gyroscopic effects, therefore, the harder the bike is to keep up.

3. When you countersteer, we're not quite sure if it's natural, learned, or just a byproduct of physics when we lean, but it works really well.

4. Countersteering does work anywhere above ab 5-10 mph. Below that, not so much...

5. Generally speaking, it's the best way to turn, and we all enjoy doing it!

Anyone have anything else to add?
Wrider

its the only way to turn mate there are no other options, you either countersteer or go in the complete opposite direction, there is no other way to turn at speed:) thats what Im saying its as basic as.. your in a car and you want to turn tright so you steer right by pulling the right side down, on a bike you want to go right you push the right bar

[sv-wolf]

That's true S-O but I think the big issue is whether you do it consciously or 'unconsciously' (That's what I took wrider to mean - could be wrong, of course.) For newcomers, I think worrying about contersteering is not a good idea.

A few years ago, there was a newbie on the TMW forums who had read up on countersteering before getting on a bike. He'd got it into his head that to go left he had to turn and hold the font wheel to the right. Whoops! Before coming on the boards, he'd already found out (quite painfully, if I remember) that that didn't work and he wanted to know why. A couple of people here were able to put him straight (or rather, explained to him how to go round corners).

So that was an object lesson in not trying to learn the basics with your head! But once you've got the basics into your unconscious, learning how and when to countersteer consciously is one of the big steps up the ladder of gaining control of your machine - and of having fun.

[Wrider]

its the only way to turn mate

That's not accurate!

The other ways of turning just usually end up with a lot of pain and new shiny parts needed!
But yeah, ok, fair enough!
Wrider

[shane-o]

That's true S-O but I think the big issue is whether you do it consciously or 'unconsciously' (That's what I took wrider to mean - could be wrong, of course.) For newcomers, I think worrying about contersteering is not a good idea.

A few years ago, there was a newbie on the TMW forums who had read up on countersteering before getting on a bike. He'd got it into his head that to go left he had to turn and hold the font wheel to the right. Whoops! Before coming on the boards, he'd already found out (quite painfully, if I remember) that that didn't work and he wanted to know why. A couple of people here were able to put him straight (or rather, explained to him how to go round corners).

So that was an object lesson in not trying to learn the basics with your head! But once you've got the basics into your unconscious, learning how and when to countersteer consciously is one of the big steps up the ladder of gaining control of your machine - and of having fun.

And this is also my concern.....new guys getting all hung up on terminology & concepts before they get started.

Over here, new people to riding (you must complete 2 courses, after the 1st you can start to ride on the roads on a restricted powered bike under 260cc, then after at least 3 months on the road you can then do the 2nd course that allows you unrestrticted bikes) You are not introduced formally to countersteering until you have spent at least 3 months riding on the road. After that, in the 2nd course countersteering is introduced.


I guess thats why im all about the riding first for nubs, then worry about the terminology and physics later. Understanding how traffic moves and how to ride in it is more important at the start than worrying about the gyro forces at play when one pushes left to go left above 15mph