How to downshift im confused

[shane-o]

So in an emergency, you're just going to leave out the remaining 20% of your stopping power? Leaving the bike in gear is not going to equal the stopping power of the rear brake.
.

Yep !!!!!!


I get that extra 20% by leaving the rear wheel engaged and down shifiting !!!!


Plus


When I need to get on it again also under an EMERG situation, my rear is free to accept input, yours is not.



*sidenote......I did an advance riders course a couple of years ago, EMERG braking was a component and was scrutinised, I stopped in the shortest distance with the most control, admittedly we were all on sporties, in dry ideal conditions.

[Skier]

So in an emergency, you're just going to leave out the remaining 20% of your stopping power? Leaving the bike in gear is not going to equal the stopping power of the rear brake.
.

Yep !!!!!!


I get that extra 20% by leaving the rear wheel engaged and down shifiting !!!!


Plus


When I need to get on it again also under an EMERG situation, my rear is free to accept input, yours is not.

If using engine braking does not lock up your rear wheel you are not getting that extra 20% of braking. You may be getting 5%, 15%, heck, even 19.999% but you are not getting maximum braking.

Getting on the throttle in case you are about to be rear-ended is easy: apply throttle and smoothly release the clutch. You can actually apply more power because you can rev and slip the clutch, applying power from the engine at higher RPMs than if you were using engine braking in an emergency stop.

(edit for your edit) Anecdotal evidence that contradicts a professional study? I'll take the study.

[shane-o]

So in an emergency, you're just going to leave out the remaining 20% of your stopping power? Leaving the bike in gear is not going to equal the stopping power of the rear brake.
.

Yep !!!!!!


I get that extra 20% by leaving the rear wheel engaged and down shifiting !!!!


Plus


When I need to get on it again also under an EMERG situation, my rear is free to accept input, yours is not.

If using engine braking does not lock up your rear wheel you are not getting that extra 20% of braking. You may be getting 5%, 15%, heck, even 19.999% but you are not getting maximum braking.

Getting on the throttle in case you are about to be rear-ended is easy: apply throttle and smoothly release the clutch. You can actually apply more power because you can rev and slip the clutch, applying power from the engine at higher RPMs than if you were using engine braking in an emergency stop.

(edit for your edit) Anecdotal evidence that contradicts a professional study? I'll take the study.

But mate im already in a taller gear at high RPMS's plus i dont have my rear wheel under brake you do, also im not thinking clutch, all i have to do is roll on.

Locking any wheel is a no no, if you lock a wheel front or back you have lost fist fulls of braking power

[Skier]

So in an emergency, you're just going to leave out the remaining 20% of your stopping power? Leaving the bike in gear is not going to equal the stopping power of the rear brake.
.

Yep !!!!!!


I get that extra 20% by leaving the rear wheel engaged and down shifiting !!!!


Plus


When I need to get on it again also under an EMERG situation, my rear is free to accept input, yours is not.

If using engine braking does not lock up your rear wheel you are not getting that extra 20% of braking. You may be getting 5%, 15%, heck, even 19.999% but you are not getting maximum braking.

Getting on the throttle in case you are about to be rear-ended is easy: apply throttle and smoothly release the clutch. You can actually apply more power because you can rev and slip the clutch, applying power from the engine at higher RPMs than if you were using engine braking in an emergency stop.

(edit for your edit) Anecdotal evidence that contradicts a professional study? I'll take the study.

But mate im already in a taller gear at high RPMS's plus i dont have my rear wheel under brake you do, also im not thinking clutch, all i have to do is roll on.

Locking any wheel is a no no, if you lock a wheel front or back you have lost fist fulls of braking power

If you downshift before performing maximum braking I can guarantee you can improve your braking performance. It's trivial to let off the rear brake while applying throttle and easing out the clutch. I do it at every stoplight, especially uphill.

Nobody will disagree locking a wheel increases stopping distance. A locked front wheel means "fall down go boom" and a locked rear wheel reduces traction and increases stopping distances. However, a locked rear wheel will allow for shorter stops than someone who doesn't touch the rear brake.

[shane-o]

So in an emergency, you're just going to leave out the remaining 20% of your stopping power? Leaving the bike in gear is not going to equal the stopping power of the rear brake.
.

Yep !!!!!!


I get that extra 20% by leaving the rear wheel engaged and down shifiting !!!!


Plus


When I need to get on it again also under an EMERG situation, my rear is free to accept input, yours is not.

If using engine braking does not lock up your rear wheel you are not getting that extra 20% of braking. You may be getting 5%, 15%, heck, even 19.999% but you are not getting maximum braking.

Getting on the throttle in case you are about to be rear-ended is easy: apply throttle and smoothly release the clutch. You can actually apply more power because you can rev and slip the clutch, applying power from the engine at higher RPMs than if you were using engine braking in an emergency stop.

(edit for your edit) Anecdotal evidence that contradicts a professional study? I'll take the study.

But mate im already in a taller gear at high RPMS's plus i dont have my rear wheel under brake you do, also im not thinking clutch, all i have to do is roll on.

Locking any wheel is a no no, if you lock a wheel front or back you have lost fist fulls of braking power

If you downshift before performing maximum braking I can guarantee you can improve your braking performance. It's trivial to let off the rear brake while applying throttle and easing out the clutch. I do it at every stoplight, especially uphill.

Nobody will disagree locking a wheel increases stopping distance. A locked front wheel means "fall down go boom" and a locked rear wheel reduces traction and increases stopping distances. However, a locked rear wheel will allow for shorter stops than someone who doesn't touch the rear brake.

I will disagree !!!

In fact Im wondering if I just read you right.


Plz tell me your not advocating that a locked wheel is advantageous with stopping power, control or distance to stop ????



I can tell you right now, locking any wheel under any circumstances is about the worst thing i think you could do, short of just saying to your self, ""donut" im just going to ram the object instead of avoiding it"

The second you lock a wheel, you have just lost control.

[Skier]

When you are braking when the bike is upright, a locked rear tire will not cause you to go down. Last time I checked, the MSF as well as other rider training programs in the States tell riders to keep a rear wheel locked until stopped. They do mention you can release the rear wheel when it is perfectly aligned but keeping it locked is an option.

Just a few years ago, the state program I currently am an instructor for, had rear-wheel skids as an exercise. That's right, newbie riders were locking the rear wheel when coming to a stop and nobody fell in my class.

I will stand by my statement of a locked rear wheel provides more braking force than a rear wheel without braking forces applied. If you don't believe me, accelerate your bike on a flat stretch of road to about 15 MPH. Pull the clutch in and don't touch either brake. It will take you a long time to stop. Now, go to 15 MPH again and stand on the rear brake. The rear tire will fishtail a bit but will follow the front wheel and you'll come to a stop.

Perform the above at your own risk or do some reading and research into it.

[shane-o]

When you are braking when the bike is upright, a locked rear tire will not cause you to go down. Last time I checked, the MSF as well as other rider training programs in the States tell riders to keep a rear wheel locked until stopped. They do mention you can release the rear wheel when it is perfectly aligned but keeping it locked is an option.

Just a few years ago, the state program I currently am an instructor for, had rear-wheel skids as an exercise. That's right, newbie riders were locking the rear wheel when coming to a stop and nobody fell in my class.

I will stand by my statement of a locked rear wheel provides more braking force than a rear wheel without braking forces applied. If you don't believe me, accelerate your bike on a flat stretch of road to about 15 MPH. Pull the clutch in and don't touch either brake. It will take you a long time to stop. Now, go to 15 MPH again and stand on the rear brake. The rear tire will fishtail a bit but will follow the front wheel and you'll come to a stop.

Perform the above at your own risk or do some reading and research into it.

Well mate, no disrespect to you this is not personal, BUT, I'm shocked !!!!!

I dont know what to say to that.


Maybe we should just agree that we have differing opinions on this matter, and thats ok, cause if we were all the same it would be a boring place.

Peace

[bzippi]

I have a question on this topic that I'm hoping some of the more experienced riders here can help with.

I agree that the front brake has the greatest stopping potential. But as you use your front brake and the braking causes weight transfer from the rear to the front of the bike, does this increase the potential of locking the rear wheel ... either by aggressive use of the rear brake or using the engine's stopping power?

Thanks

[shane-o]

I have a question on this topic that I'm hoping some of the more experienced riders here can help with.

I agree that the front brake has the greatest stopping potential. But as you use your front brake and the braking causes weight transfer from the rear to the front of the bike, does this increase the potential of locking the rear wheel ... either by aggressive use of the rear brake or using the engine's stopping power?

Thanks

in a word yes.


handfulls of front will shove weight violently forward, which will lighten the rear wheel, and if the rear is already re.tarded by either brake or gear/high RPM, it can lock.

[Skier]

I have a question on this topic that I'm hoping some of the more experienced riders here can help with.

I agree that the front brake has the greatest stopping potential. But as you use your front brake and the braking causes weight transfer from the rear to the front of the bike, does this increase the potential of locking the rear wheel ... either by aggressive use of the rear brake or using the engine's stopping power?

Thanks

Correct, weight transfer means as braking occurs you get less and less traction available for the rear tire. This is why safety courses teach "light to lighter" on the rear brake: apply it and as you continue to brake, ease off.

When you are braking when the bike is upright, a locked rear tire will not cause you to go down. Last time I checked, the MSF as well as other rider training programs in the States tell riders to keep a rear wheel locked until stopped. They do mention you can release the rear wheel when it is perfectly aligned but keeping it locked is an option.

Just a few years ago, the state program I currently am an instructor for, had rear-wheel skids as an exercise. That's right, newbie riders were locking the rear wheel when coming to a stop and nobody fell in my class.

I will stand by my statement of a locked rear wheel provides more braking force than a rear wheel without braking forces applied. If you don't believe me, accelerate your bike on a flat stretch of road to about 15 MPH. Pull the clutch in and don't touch either brake. It will take you a long time to stop. Now, go to 15 MPH again and stand on the rear brake. The rear tire will fishtail a bit but will follow the front wheel and you'll come to a stop.

Perform the above at your own risk or do some reading and research into it.

Well mate, no disrespect to you this is not personal, BUT, I'm shocked !!!!!

I dont know what to say to that.


Maybe we should just agree that we have differing opinions on this matter, and thats ok, cause if we were all the same it would be a boring place.

Peace

It can be a matter of fact if you try my example. A motorcycle stopping only by friction between the wheel bearings and powertrain, no brakes or engine braking, has about zero stopping power. A locked rear wheel provides magnitudes of power more braking force. Not much to it.

(edit)

Here is an excerpt from my state's motorcycle riding manual:



Notice it has the section about keeping the rear tire locked. It also states you can control the bike with a locked rear tire.

Look at the diagram: See how using both brakes stops the quickest? If you were to apply maximum braking on the front tire and instantly lock the rear tire, you will still stop faster than just using the front brake. The small amount of braking force given by the rear tire is better than no braking force.