Too Hot in Turn

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NORTY
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Re: Too Hot in Turn

#31 Unread post by NORTY »

Front brake, rear brake, throttle down, "pin it", change gear whilst in turn, "trail" braking, "loading the front," using the rear to "settle" the front. These are all based on one thing~ available friction between the tire and the road surface. The street isn't the best place to discover "threshold friction." Riding an offroad bike were friction is mostly poor at best is good training, when it comes to "what to do vs. what NOT to do."

Unfortunately, converting from dirt to street, much higher friction capabilities are experienced, so this is hardly effective, but it's the best training currently.During your riding "career", you'll have surprises. It's these "surprises" that you learn to deal with and use that knowledge for future reference. I guess you just have to rely on "experience" from past saves. The less "saves" you have to make, the better rider you are.

Entering a turn "too hot" is a result of one thing: EGO.
A rider unfamiliar with a turn should always hold back. A rider should never ride at more than 40% on the street, IMHO. The street is used to get somewhere. Use the track for riding @ > 40%.
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Re: Too Hot in Turn

#32 Unread post by StillTry'n »

Norty

Pretty much sums it up. Learn on the dirt, before you get on the street. Not an option in my case.

Don't get to hot to begin with, Dan. Roadway conditions will decide if I am going to crash if I have gone "ego".

And to everybody else I have learned this: hold my line and stay on the throttle....trust my bike to find the exit.

But mostly: ride within my limits.

I appreciate everybody's input on this thread.

Dan

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Re: Too Hot in Turn

#33 Unread post by BRUMBEAR »

I do not agree that dirt riding and street riding are similar in any way. I road trail enduro and raced motocross when I was young and everything is completely different.
dirt first of all has no CAGERS
dirt you don't use mirrors often if at all
Street feet in always unless your at a near standstill
Street hardly use reaer brakes
morning conditions in canopy "don't hit the lines"
Standing while you street ride unless your squiding or "shaking it out" aint a real good idea either
Dirt 50% of the time or better your standing.
I do agree the motocycle is a similar machine though thats kind of where it ends for me but each to there own I'm no kill joy!!!
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Re: Too Hot in Turn

#34 Unread post by StillTry'n »

Brumbear

I'll disagree: in that a biker who started in the dirt will have a lot more ability on the street than a noobie (like myself) who has only ridden street bikes.

You are 100% correct that "conditions" on the street are 180 degrees opposed to motocross: but the "feel of the bike" is what I am missing that young dirt bikers have from the very beginning. Cagers and mirrors are not where I was coming from.

This post was about going.... "too hot into a turn".

If I had started out on a dirt bike many years ago I would not have had to ask this question.

The elite of super sport racers today all started in the dirt. It is hard for me to imagine that an experienced dirt biker cannot ride a street bike. Again...I am not talking cagers and mirrors and hitting apexes here, I am talking handling and braking.

I could be wrong, Brumbear, and I want you to please correct me if you feel I am. Your thoughts are most helpful.

Dan

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Re: Too Hot in Turn

#35 Unread post by sapaul »

If I may chip in with the do not's

Panic, this will lead to survival instincts kicking in and then it's all down to luck or God.

Do anything in a sharp or uncontrolled manner, gearing down should only be done if there is adequate room before the apex or as you exit under power. The reason is that in the corner your chassis is under load and taut, slacken off as in a clutch change and the chassis loses stability

Fight the lean, you must counter steer and position your body correctly, fighting against the lean will not assist the bike around the corner.

Keep all body parts on the bike, do not stick legs out.

Do not stiffen body or lock elbows, this will restrict the movement of the bike, the inputs from your body will be slow and exaggerated

Throttle off, there is a huge difference between "feathering" which is neutral between power on and power off and powering off. Snapping the throttle to the off position will stop fuel feed and again the chassis will lose all stability

look at your crash site, "Look There Go There" Keep looking ahead at where you want to be.

Grab brakes, front or back. Whichever you use has to be slow and smooth, no sudden inputs. This is bike and rider dependent. An example VFR 800 6th gen, integrated braking system. Back brake only will give you 70% on the back and 30% on the front. Front brake only will give you 70% front and 30 back

Scream

Nip buttocks too hard, this causes cramps in your thighs and severe stomach ache, makes riding difficult as well as many hours of underwear removal and may need surgery

The hardest thing I have to teach is to throttle on in this type of situation as all of your instincts are screaming at you to slow down. The above posts are from guys who have experienced this. Listen to them.

I am an advocate of "The Pace" google it for more info, but the basic premise is that all corners should have a correct entry speed in order to ride them properly. Many people think I ride fast. The truth is I do not but have learned to corner correctly which leaves those that have not standing. Read "The pace"
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Re: Too Hot in Turn

#36 Unread post by BRUMBEAR »

I see I kind of meant that when I said motorcycles are similar. I started on the dirt a long time ago but let me please tell you dirt bike turning and street bike turning are completely different for me. Especially in motocross so coming in to hot must be reletive.
IE what happens in a motocross race if your to hot in the turn
slam the brakes to set the machine drop a gear and gun it while planting your leg to guide the machine.
in a street situation.
feather the front to set the bike if you can, twist your body countersteer with a hard input if you can get to the trail brake use it lightly IE right or left hander I opt not to touch the trail brake when you apex hold the line and throttle when possible.
The absolute thing that does not change for me is DO NOT PANIC!!!!!!!!!
One thing that helps me not panic is believe it or not having the right gear on. Knowing if I do go down my chances are much better of not getting road rash but that applies for both street and dirt equaly and that is just me.
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Re: Too Hot in Turn

#37 Unread post by storysunfolding »

BRUMBEAR wrote:feather the front to set the bike if you can, twist your body countersteer with a hard input if you can get to the trail brake use it lightly IE right or left hander I opt not to touch the trail brake when you apex hold the line and throttle when possible.
I'm not following what you're trying to get across here. Why are you twisting your body? Also trail braking is a technique, you're making it sound like it's a specific brake. Can you elaborate?
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Re: Too Hot in Turn

#38 Unread post by BRUMBEAR »

Yeah I am pretty horrible with these confounded machines. ok I'll try
coming in to say the left hander at the end of the pocono east track straight for shyts and giggles,I feather the front brake to set my line once there I will let the bike go and run down and with my bike I am lucky I don't have to beat up the shifter just from 4th to 3rd hang my body off left elbow down chin over the hand grip butt off the seat is what I should say feat on the pegs at the balls left knee out weight shifted foward a strong input into the handlebars (countersteer) hit the Apex and ZOOM instant grin and E ticket at disney :D Hows that
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Re: Too Hot in Turn

#39 Unread post by BRUMBEAR »

Yes the PACE is going to be p-touched and stuck on my airbox or tank cover so I don't act a fool that is a great article I read it every season when the riding gets going in earnest again thanks for bringing that up.
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Re: Too Hot in Turn

#40 Unread post by dj biker »

Being an Insurance Adjuster, I can safely state that most accidents that occur in a corner are due to the lack of courage of the rider. I have seen very few instances where the bike would actually not handle the curve at well over 20mph over the posted limit. Check out the bikes at Indy, they are dragging knees and still have traction. Most of the time, what happens is the rider loses courage in the turn, and simply refuses to lean the bike to the necessary angle to manipulate the curve and just runs off the road. There are knobs on your OEM footpegs and/or floorboards. These are for dragging on the ground in a tight turn and should indicate that you are near the limits of the bike. Until the pegs drag, lean that puppy over!

One important factor is to never attempt any of this on tires with less than 500 miles on them. Many accidents involve new tires and even very experienced riders. New tires take time to scuff in and wear off the factory coatings that protect the tires during storage, plus it takes time and heat to properly seat the tire on the rim. For 500 miles take it easy on new tires, especially in the curves, after that, LEAN THE BIKE, it will likely save your life.

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