What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner friendly?

Message
Author
R121991
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:16 am
Real Name: Ray
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 1
My Motorcycle: Year/Make/Model
Location: Hampton Roads, VA

What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner friendly?

#1 Unread post by R121991 »

Title says it all. What is it about some of the sport bikes (engine, frame, power) that make them friendly in power to new riders and some that make them track bikes?
~~~The Truth is Out There~~~
-Fox Mulder, The X-Files

Wrider
Site Supporter - Gold
Site Supporter - Gold
Posts: 5285
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:46 pm
Real Name: Ryan
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 4
My Motorcycle: 2005 Kawasaki Z750S
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner frien

#2 Unread post by Wrider »

Completely objectively? I'll go step by step...

Steering. These are street-legalized race bikes, they turn into corners HARD, almost like "Hey I just thought I wanted to turn left and I'm going left now.". I know it sounds preposterous but it really is that quick on a lot of supersports. They're not designed to forgive mistakes either. They're designed to be able to ride to the track, turn out a hot lap, and ride back home.

Engines. These are 0.6L inline 4 engines producing around 120 HP. to put that into perspective, a Corvette ZR-1 (supercharged 6.2L V8) produces 638 HP. If the 600's engine were increased to the size of the Corvette's, and the same power to size ratio was used, we'd be looking at a 6.2L V8 that pushes 1,240 HP BEFORE adding a supercharger to the mix.

Power to weight ratio. The Corvette ZR-1 also has a power to weight ratio of 5.4 lbs for every horsepower, which by any car's standards is AMAZING. In contrast though, the 2011 GSX-R600 has a power to weight ratio of 3.5 pounds for every horsepower. Ask any kind of racer and most will tell you they'd kill without a second thought for that kind of power to weight increase.

Weight. The 2011 GSX-R600 is claiming a dry weight of 419 lbs, which is very light for a bike (especially compared to the Fat Bob you've ridden). The key difference there is where the weight is located. Sportbike designers have been working for well over two decades to get the mass centralized and high in the frame, which aids lean-in when cornering. As a result, your average sportbike is much heavier feeling than your average cruiser, which tend to have very low centers of gravity. The higher COG also makes it a lot less stable at low speeds and makes it very quick to go over (firsthand experience on them trying to go over, trust me on this one.)

Now for the subjective parts...
Comfort. In a phrase, not much. Like I said earlier, these bikes are designed to be ridden on the track, not over the river and through the woods to Grandmother's house. They're not comfortable, you're laying on the tank, your legs are scrunched up under you, your neck will get sore, your wrists will get sore, it's just not comfortable. The next time you're out driving around take a good look at the sportbike riders you see riding around. Notice how almost every one of them will put their left hand on their hip when they get up to cruising speed. That's because they can use the support for their back and wrists. To put the neck strain in perspective, put on a helmet, lay on your bed on your stomach, and try reading a book for 20 minutes without resting your head on a pillow or anything.

Control. Can you handle it? Possibly, I can't tell you what you can and can't handle. I can however tell you what I've seen happen to a lot of inexperienced riders (including myself.) While driving around have you ever accidentally revved up your engine a little high to take off? Have you ever accidentally dropped the clutch? Ever accidentally done a small burnout? With a sportbike you don't have the advantage of weight and tire slip. A little extra throttle and a little extra-fast release of the clutch sends the nose skyward. Trust me I've done it. One second you're taking off from a light normally, the next the front tire suddenly feels REALLY light and you're wondering why you're looking at the streetlights instead of at the road in front of you.

Now... that's my objective and subjective opinion of the matter at hand. Maybe you'll listen, maybe you won't. But either way the facts are the facts, and the opinions are mine!
Have owned - 2001 Suzuki Volusia
Current bike - 2005 Kawasaki Z750S
MMI Graduation date January 9th, 2009. Factory Certifications in Suzuki and Yamaha

User avatar
totalmotorcycle
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 29679
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:00 pm
Real Name: Mike
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 32
My Motorcycle: 2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba

Re: What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner frien

#3 Unread post by totalmotorcycle »

A really great question. I'm glad you asked as I know you are quite interested in the answers. I will have to write you tomorrow or tonight when I can devote more time to a proper reply.
NEW 2024 Motorcycle Model Guides
2023 Motorcycle Model Guides

Total Motorcycle is official Media/Press for Aprilia, Benelli, Beta, Bimota, BMW, Brammo, Buell, Can-Am, CCW, Ducati, EBR, Harley-Davidson, Honda, Husqvarna, Husaberg, Hyosung, Indian, Kawasaki, KTM, KYMCO, LiveWire, Moto Guzzi, Moto Morini, MV Agusta, Norton, Phantom, Piaggio, Polaris, Ridley, Roehr, Royal Enfield, Suzuki, Triumph, Ural, Vespa, Victory, Yamaha and Zero.

Wrider
Site Supporter - Gold
Site Supporter - Gold
Posts: 5285
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:46 pm
Real Name: Ryan
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 4
My Motorcycle: 2005 Kawasaki Z750S
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner frien

#4 Unread post by Wrider »

I also wanted to add why I tend to recommend 650s. First off they're usually two cylinder vehicles. Which means a little more torque, but a lot less horsepower in most cases. (Only exception is the GSX-650F, which is a 4 cylinder based off of the Bandit 650).
The parallel and V-twin 650s are better beginner bikes because they are not as devoted to being race-oriented. The SV-650 for example is probably the most race-oriented of the 650 class, but it's less cramped than the 600s, it's much more forgiving in terms of steering/braking/throttle inputs, and it also honestly a bit more fun to ride IMO. With a race oriented bike you have to be on the ball to keep it from getting away from you.
A classic case is riders getting on them and saying to themselves "Hey, why is traffic going so slo *glance at speedometer* HOLLLYY COW I'M MOVING!". If you wrap out second gear you're already doing over 100 MPH and it's quite easy to get caught up in the moment. At freeway speeds you're only in the powerband of the first two, maybe three gears. To get any use out of the top three, you have to either be out of the powerband or be way up in the triple digits.
The other ones aren't quite as fast. You have to wrap out third and sometimes fourth to get over 100, but it will easily cruiser at interstate speeds in any gear (except for maybe first).
Have owned - 2001 Suzuki Volusia
Current bike - 2005 Kawasaki Z750S
MMI Graduation date January 9th, 2009. Factory Certifications in Suzuki and Yamaha

User avatar
jstark47
Site Supporter - Silver
Site Supporter - Silver
Posts: 3538
Joined: Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:58 pm
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 16
My Motorcycle: '12 Tiger 800, '03 Trophy 1200
Location: Lumberton, NJ

Re: What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner frien

#5 Unread post by jstark47 »

I'd like to make one point in addition to wrider's excellent posts. Some supersport inline-4 bikes have peaky torque curves. That means torque does not have a nice linear relationship to RPMs, but there is one RPM band that has radically more torque than elsewhere. Typically around 7-8K RPMs torque starts to rise rapidly. So if you are clumsy with the throttle, whack it open, and get it into those RPM's, suddenly the bike will accelerate like a rocket. Since a noob typically doesn't have finely trained reactions and reflexes, this can happen, and it can be trouble if it happens. The flip side of this is these bikes can be gutless at lower RPMs, which makes them kind of aggravating for practical, around-town riding.

Generally 650cc sport twins have a much flatter torque curve. There is more usuable torque at the RPMs you'd typically use in ordinary riding, and there isn't that surprising torque peak at higher RPMs. So, they're more fun to ride at ordinary street speeds, and they're easier to control for a noob.

Being peaky isn't necessarily a function of engine architecture, it's quite possible to tune a 600cc in-line 4 for a flatter torque curve. It just typically isn't done by the Japanese big 4 manufacturers on their full-faired, race replica supersport models.
2003 Triumph Trophy 1200
2009 BMW F650GS (wife's)
2012 Triumph Tiger 800
2018 Yamaha XT250 (wife's)
2013 Kawasaki KLX250S

Wrider
Site Supporter - Gold
Site Supporter - Gold
Posts: 5285
Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 1:46 pm
Real Name: Ryan
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 4
My Motorcycle: 2005 Kawasaki Z750S
Location: Colorado Springs, CO

Re: What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner frien

#6 Unread post by Wrider »

This is very true.
Look at the chart below, and look at that insane jump from 8.5-10K.
Image
Have owned - 2001 Suzuki Volusia
Current bike - 2005 Kawasaki Z750S
MMI Graduation date January 9th, 2009. Factory Certifications in Suzuki and Yamaha

User avatar
totalmotorcycle
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 29679
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:00 pm
Real Name: Mike
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 32
My Motorcycle: 2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba

Re: What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner frien

#7 Unread post by totalmotorcycle »

jstark47 and wrider have made some great points and I'll second what they are saying as well.

Again, the 600cc sportbikes do not make a comfortable bike for day-to-day city riding. They are made for the curves, twisties and the track. Because of this they work best in high rpm's, leaning over and not long rides. Sure you can get a more comfortable seat, raise the bars and re-map it, but then you bought the wrong bike.

I'd worry more about buying a 600cc bike that isn't comfortable and not designed for what I did 90% of the time than I did buying a small bike doing 90% of what I did. (commuting).

I know we are in North America, but you might not know that a 150cc bike is BIG outside of 1st world countries. And they haul so much stuff on them and travel hundreds of miles to boot.

If you want a sporty bike that isn't a 250cc and is a parallel-twin, take a look at the GS500F and the Ninja 500R.

Remember too that just because an engine is bigger doesn't mean it's better. There are lots of trade-offs.
NEW 2024 Motorcycle Model Guides
2023 Motorcycle Model Guides

Total Motorcycle is official Media/Press for Aprilia, Benelli, Beta, Bimota, BMW, Brammo, Buell, Can-Am, CCW, Ducati, EBR, Harley-Davidson, Honda, Husqvarna, Husaberg, Hyosung, Indian, Kawasaki, KTM, KYMCO, LiveWire, Moto Guzzi, Moto Morini, MV Agusta, Norton, Phantom, Piaggio, Polaris, Ridley, Roehr, Royal Enfield, Suzuki, Triumph, Ural, Vespa, Victory, Yamaha and Zero.

User avatar
Gummiente
Site Supporter - Platinum
Site Supporter - Platinum
Posts: 3485
Joined: Wed May 11, 2005 11:34 pm
Real Name: Mike
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 38
My Motorcycle: 03 Super Glide
Location: Kingston, ON

Re: What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner frien

#8 Unread post by Gummiente »

The Cole's Notes version of all the above: When you twist the throttle on a 600cc+ sportbike, a lot of "poo poo" happens in a REALLY short amount of time. A new rider does not have the experience or skill set to deal with it.
:canada: Mike :gummiente:
It isn't WHAT you ride,
It's THAT you ride

User avatar
totalmotorcycle
Administrator
Administrator
Posts: 29679
Joined: Sat Nov 22, 2003 1:00 pm
Real Name: Mike
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 32
My Motorcycle: 2013 Moto Guzzi V7 Stone
Location: Winnipeg, Manitoba

Re: What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner frien

#9 Unread post by totalmotorcycle »

Gummiente wrote:The Cole's Notes version of all the above: When you twist the throttle on a 600cc+ sportbike, a lot of "poo poo" happens in a REALLY short amount of time. A new rider does not have the experience or skill set to deal with it.
So true. And not to really scare new riders, but it can happen in what seems like under a second before you hit a tree, car or even another person. It's not the bike's power that is at fault, it's the natual reflexive action and time honed practice to handle something so powerful that hasn't been built yet by the rider.

It would be like taking your learners on an F1 car. How long before you go off the track?

Mike
NEW 2024 Motorcycle Model Guides
2023 Motorcycle Model Guides

Total Motorcycle is official Media/Press for Aprilia, Benelli, Beta, Bimota, BMW, Brammo, Buell, Can-Am, CCW, Ducati, EBR, Harley-Davidson, Honda, Husqvarna, Husaberg, Hyosung, Indian, Kawasaki, KTM, KYMCO, LiveWire, Moto Guzzi, Moto Morini, MV Agusta, Norton, Phantom, Piaggio, Polaris, Ridley, Roehr, Royal Enfield, Suzuki, Triumph, Ural, Vespa, Victory, Yamaha and Zero.

R121991
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 10
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2011 10:16 am
Real Name: Ray
Sex: Male
Years Riding: 1
My Motorcycle: Year/Make/Model
Location: Hampton Roads, VA

Re: What makes certain 600cc+ sport bikes not beginner frien

#10 Unread post by R121991 »

Alright I hear what you guys are saying and I appreciate all the comments. Here's some bikes that I'm picturing though when I say 600cc. Suzuki SV650, Ninja 500, ninja 650r, bikes that have the higher engine but are not completely meant to be track bikes. I'm not looking to get a Yamaha YZF or anything like that.
~~~The Truth is Out There~~~
-Fox Mulder, The X-Files

Post Reply