Right Turns?

[cb360]

I didn't realize we were on the subject of countersteering.....and, technically to countersteer in a right turn is to turn left.

Not in the sense in which we are discussing it. I mean yeah, the handlebars go left to turn right - I guess that's why they call it countersteering. We're getting tangled up in semantics. I was just clarifying what Kon Dee said - which was perfectly clear to all us MSF people When countersteering, you push the grip (right grip to turn right) in the direction you want to turn, and then you go in that direction. So the mantra is 'look right, push right, go right' or something like that. You're talking about the turn of the handlebars and we are talking about the push on the handgrip - but we're both talking about the same thing actually, just from a different perspective.

[ZooTech]

MSF or not, I still don't get it. If you push on any portion of the handlebar that is to the right of center, that portion of the handlebar will swing away from you, thus causing a left turn. It doesn't matter if it's the grips, the mirror, the brake fluid reservoir...whatever. If you push away from you with your right hand, your arse is going left. What context of the word "push" did this MSF course teach you guys???

you push the grip (right grip to turn right)

If I push MY right grip, my bike turns left. To go right, I have to push with my left grip or pull on my right grip or both. Unless, of course, you're referring to the stunt-riding portion of the MSF course where you all have to ride your motorcycle while sitting on the front fender.

[cb360]

Nope. If you push the right grip forward, the wheel turns very slightly left, the bike leans right and turns right. Now if you're crawling and sitting straight up at less than 5mph you can go left like that, but I don't think that's what we're talking about. I know it sounds weird, but we all do it all the time on bicycles and motorcycles but we don't realize the physics angle of it until we make the connection and then it's all clear. You push on the right handgrip to turn right. You push on the left handgrip to turn left. It's called countersteering and we all do it every time we get on the bike whether we realize it or not.

Somebody help me out here.

[JustJames]

MSF or not, I still don't get it. If you push on any portion of the handlebar that is to the right of center, that portion of the handlebar will swing away from you, thus causing a left turn. It doesn't matter if it's the grips, the mirror, the brake fluid reservoir...whatever. If you push away from you with your right hand, your arse is going left. What context of the word "push" did this MSF course teach you guys???

you push the grip (right grip to turn right)

If I push MY right grip, my bike turns left. To go right, I have to push with my left grip or pull on my right grip or both. Unless, of course, you're referring to the stunt-riding portion of the MSF course where you all have to ride your motorcycle while sitting on the front fender.

You can try by steering with one hand, (Right hand) to control the throttle. Go around 20 mph, push and pull slightly on your right hand and see which way your bike lean. Did I mention slightly push and pull, too much and you will drop especially with your heavy big bike.

[iwannadie]

i still dont think ive ever counter steered around a 90degree turn coming from a stop. i mean your at a stand still you need to turn the front wheel in the direction your going, if your making a right turn that front wheel should point right. unless ive just always been turning wrong lol. i fully understand countersteering, when taking a turn at speed i counter steer. but not at slow speeds.

i ride one handed most of the time so i really get the feel for counter steering. if im Pushing the Right handle bar Away from me i will Turn Right. if i am Turning Left i will Pull the Right bar towards me.

look right, press right, turn right. maybe ZooTech you need to take the msf course or practice counter steering? sit on your bike and have someone straddle your front tire(their feet firmly pressing on each side of the tire). they should be able to support the bike with their legs or use their hands if needed. put your feet up then Lightly Press the Right grip Away from you(the tire will turn slightly left) youll feel the bike lean to the Right causing you to turn to the Right. the tire is pointed left but you will turn right no problem.

[cb360]

Yeah, we kinda have two different things going on here. This thread started with a question about slow right turns from a dead stop and then we got into a countersteering discussion. Two completely different animals. I countersteer on right turns all the time but you aren't really countersteering when going reallllyyyy slow. I think I said that somewhere up above.

[ronboskz650sr]

If you push away from you with your right hand, your arse is going left. What context of the word "push" did this MSF course teach you guys???


If I push MY right grip, my bike turns left. To go right, I have to push with my left grip or pull on my right grip or both. :

Sorry, Zoo, but unless you ride at a walking pace all the time, physics proves this simply isn't true. This cannot be a discussion with two sides...you DO countersteer at all speeds above a walking speed (perhaps a fast walk, depending on your bike's steering geometry) regardless of whether you are aware of, or believe, it.

[ZooTech]

Sorry, Zoo, but unless you ride at a walking pace all the time, physics proves this simply isn't true. This cannot be a discussion with two sides...you DO countersteer at all speeds above a walking speed (perhaps a fast walk, depending on your bike's steering geometry) regardless of whether you are aware of, or believe, it.

At all speeds <25mph (the speeds in question in this thread) you better believe I have to point my tire in the direction I want to go (requiring me to push on the opposite grip). The geometrical anomolies you're referring to do not come into play (at least on my bike) until all road speeds above 25mph. The reason for the counter-intuitive anomoly is because of the difference in tire widths from the front to the rear (the rear tire on a bike is typically ~50% wider than the front) and the steering geometry that creates at speed, especially during hard banking (also evident while changing lanes on the freeway). Problem is, the written test (at least here in Ohio) specifically asks how to turn a motorcycle, and the correct answers are always to push the grip on the opposite side of the bike from the desired turn. If our MSF centers are using the same terminology to describe counter-steering, especially by making up sayings like "look right, push right, turn right" I believe that is dangerously misleading, since most if not all low-speed navigation requires the opposite.

So, again, it's a matter of context, not semantics or defying physics (more specifically, geometry). And I'm even more glad to have not taken the MSF course than I was before.

Yeah, we kinda have two different things going on here. This thread started with a question about slow right turns from a dead stop and then we got into a countersteering discussion. Two completely different animals. I countersteer on right turns all the time but you aren't really countersteering when going reallllyyyy slow. I think I said that somewhere up above.

Granted...and that's my bad. I read just enough to post a reply to KON DEE not realizing the thread had wandered from the topic's namesake.

[JustJames]

To not confused any further I will stop about counter steering, but I can do counter steering at alot lower speed than 20mph espeically from dead stop to turn both right and left direction.

On right turn, I can do the turn as narrow as along the curve which is really helpful when riding in a group (stag formation) and that counter steering (I put the bike underneath me as riding in motorcross).

Like you said at low speed, I have to turn the wheel to the direction I want to go but after that counter steering will come to play. I believe when bike turn, it has to lean and when it lean it will need counter steering to maintain the bike angle.

I might be wrong here but that is my feeling and the way I do it. I have no knowladge on technical term so pardon me if I make an invalid point.

[ronboskz650sr]

Sorry, Zoo, but unless you ride at a walking pace all the time, physics proves this simply isn't true. This cannot be a discussion with two sides...you DO countersteer at all speeds above a walking speed (perhaps a fast walk, depending on your bike's steering geometry) regardless of whether you are aware of, or believe, it.

At all speeds <25mph (the speeds in question in this thread) you better believe I have to point my tire in the direction I want to go (requiring me to push on the opposite grip). The geometrical anomolies you're referring to do not come into play (at least on my bike) until all road speeds above 25mph. The reason for the counter-intuitive anomoly is because of the difference in tire widths from the front to the rear (the rear tire on a bike is typically ~50% wider than the front) and the steering geometry that creates at speed, especially during hard banking (also evident while changing lanes on the freeway).
So, again, it's a matter of context, not semantics or defying physics (more specifically, geometry). And I'm even more glad to have not taken the MSF course than I was before.
:

Okay. Believe it your way. But, you can't prove it, and the new folks MUST not believe the 25 mph part or they will ride right off the road. Fortunately, most people end up doing it right out of necessity without even knowing about it. I've been quiet for a few days here, and it seems we need a recharge of fact vs. opinion. I'm done in this thread, but new people should find a resource like Ridelikeapro.com to get the proven information without any nay-saying. I maintain, and can prove...at walking speeds you steer...above that you countersteer. Not trying to be a jerk, but physics stands on it's own, and your explaination of tire widths, etc. simply isn't the reason, or the way it works.