Right Turns?

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#31 Unread post by **cb360** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 11:57 am

Touche' ronboskz650sr - physics does not tolerate naysayers...

#32 Unread post by **ZooTech** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:00 pm

ronboskz650sr wrote:Okay. Believe it your way. But, you can't prove it, and the new folks MUST not believe the 25 mph part or they will ride right off the road. Fortunately, most people end up doing it right out of necessity without even knowing about it. I've been quiet for a few days here, and it seems we need a recharge of fact vs. opinion. I'm done in this thread, but new people should find a resource like Ridelikeapro.com to get the proven information without any nay-saying. I maintain, and can prove...at walking speeds you steer...above that you countersteer. Not trying to be a jerk, but physics stands on it's own, and your explaination of tire widths, etc. simply isn't the reason, or the way it works.

Okay, you can either get all worked-up about it or you can believe me when I say I paid extra close attention to this very thing on the ride home today. While taking 80-degree curves at 60mph my bars barely turned at all, but they did turn opposite of the desired direction to correct for the fact that the lean alone was more than adequate to maintain the turn. But when I turned left onto my street from a rolling stop and when I turned right into my complex (both at or near 25mph) my bars were turned substantialy and the front wheel was pointed in the direction of the turn.

Your bike/results may vary, as will your ability to realize I'm not trying to argue with you, but rather I'm just relating my own observations on my particular bike. It all comes down to the particular bike in question, the angle of the turn, and the speed at which you take the turn. You make it sound as though the only time you "drive" the bike like a car is during parking maneuvers in your garage. That may be the case with your bike, but it sure as hell isn't the case with mine.

cb360 wrote:Touche' ronboskz650sr - physics does not tolerate naysayers...

It's a long ride from Seattle on a vintage 360, but you're welcome to come watch me bust out a right turn into my apartment complex at 25mph with my front wheel turned in the direction I'm going. I don't appreciate the public attempt to make me look like an idiot, especially when I've already observed these very things on my own bike just three hours ago.

Joe Mc · #33 Unread post by **Joe Mc** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:16 pm

Perhaps it does very from bike to bike. If I'm making a right turn at 25 mph I'm sure as hell not turning my wheel to the right! I'm pushing to the left.

I'm guesstimating that I countersteer above 10mph.

#34 Unread post by **ZooTech** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:29 pm

Joe Mc wrote:Perhaps it does very from bike to bike. If I'm making a right turn at 25 mph I'm sure as hell not turning my wheel to the right! I'm pushing to the left.

I'm guesstimating that I countersteer above 10mph.

From Motorman's own website, since he seems to be the unofficial authority I am allegedly contradicting:

Motorman wrote:In a nut shell, counter steering is simply pushing the handle bars right or left in order to steer the motorcycle. In other words, push left to go left, push right to go right. On most full size cruisers the necessity for counter steering occurs at about 15mph and up. At low speeds, below 15mph whatever way you turn the handlebars, that's the way the motorcycle will go. It's called, handlebar steering. Counter steering doesn't come into play until the gyrocscopic effect of the two-wheeled vehicle takes over. The shorter the wheelbase of the motorcycle, the lower the speed gyroscopic effect takes place.

The words "most" and "about" are qualifying adjectives, and my bike is not far off from the norm. However, even 15mph is far from walking speed. And my bike has an above-average wheelbase, so according to Motorman himself my bike's gyroscopic effects do not kick in until higher speeds.

And don't be fooled, the width of the rear tire versus the front plays a big role in how your bike handles and how all these other variables play out.

#35 Unread post by **cb360** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:30 pm

For the sake of the rest of the people on the forum I will stipulate to the fact that your bike doesn't work like the bikes the rest of us have.

[quote="ZooTech"]
I don't appreciate the public attempt to make me look like an idiot.[quote]

I did no such thing at any time and if you reread my posts and find any inferrence to you being an idiot it is a conclusion you fabricated because I certainly didn't put it there. I was polite and civil in each and every post, I simply agreed with KON DEE and ronboskz650sr and said so without denigrating you in the slightest.

#36 Unread post by **ZooTech** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:34 pm

cb360 wrote:
ZooTech wrote: I don't appreciate the public attempt to make me look like an idiot.
I did no such thing at any time and if you reread my posts and find any inferrence to you being an idiot it is a conclusion you fabricated because I certainly didn't put it there. I was polite and civil in each and every post, I simply agreed with KON DEE and ronboskz650sr and said so without denigrating you in the slightest.

cb360 wrote:Touche' ronboskz650sr - physics does not tolerate naysayers...

So, I'm not an idiot for trying to argue against the laws of physics? Maybe you intended this to be a "civil" response, but I sure as hell didn't take it as one. Especially since the statement was a direct reply to (and agreement with) a hostile post from Ron.

#37 Unread post by **cb360** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:38 pm

That is your prerogative. I'm pro-science, I'm not anti-zootech. Can't we just disagree without it turning into a personal thing? I disagree with some of your earlier posts about steering - not a big deal.

#38 Unread post by **ZooTech** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:44 pm

cb360 wrote:That is your prerogative. I'm pro-science, I'm not anti-zootech. Can't we just disagree without it turning into a personal thing? I disagree with some of your earlier posts about steering - not a big deal.

So now my observations are not scientific? Which posts are you in disagreement with?

#39 Unread post by **cb360** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 12:54 pm

For instance when you said... "If you push away from you with your right hand, your arse is going left. What context of the word "push" did this MSF course teach you guys???"

My arse goes right when I push right, the same way that Kon Dee and Ron go. It doesn't go left like yours does. But we've already established that there was some earlier confusion between actual counter-steering (where you most definitely push in the direction you want to turn on each and every bike made) and extremely slow speed maneuvers and everyone would probably get bored with the rehash. There's no honor to defend here, so let's just drop it. Agree to disagree as it were.

#40 Unread post by **ZooTech** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 1:43 pm

cb360 wrote:Agree to disagree as it were.

That's just it...I don't disagree. I apologized for not realizing the topic had shifted to higher-speed turns where the "push rule" is reversed, so there was never any contention in the first place, and I'm certainly not a physics naysayer. Ron got up and stormed out of the room, spouting the "Ride Like a Pro" website as his source of all that is holy. But if you notice, the debate boiled down to at what speed does "handlebar steering" cease to be a viable option, and that varies from bike to bike as Motorman's website clearly stated. So I'm not at odds with the laws of physics and, if anything, Motorman's website backed-up my claims about my Mean Streak, so I'm really not sure how we even got here in the first place.