Whew! I didn't know I fell so far behind in just one thread.
Truck problems, and my business biting me one last time as I close it up.
I have a cousin, and know a guy at church who are both "formerly gay" until an instantaneous change upon accepting Jesus as Lord and Saviour. Not my word, but theirs. Interesting. I know missionaries who see "tolerant" Muslims convert to Christianity after reading what it really is. Interesting. If you don't think the Koran says to kill the infidel (Christian), you haven't read the whole Koran. "Radical muslim groups" are the ones who actually follow it. Read it, it's interesting.
One of the main differences between Christianity and other far-eastern religions is the philosophy of coming together to subsequently go out and do God's work. The others often promote separating from humanity altogether to achieve some higher state of self actualization..often associated with emptiness, rather than fulfillment. Still others come together to separate from society as a group of believers. Still others, even western ones, come together to defy authority. The bible doesn't condone this. Only the first example...coming together to go out and do God's work..has any basis in biblical teaching.
By the time the new testament was written in the first century, God's plan of action was one of redemption for the human race, not violence. The old testament prophecies, however, give a clear picture of this centuries before Christ came. Before and after the prophecies, there were wars...some led by God. The new testament isn't about these, it's about the plan of salvation and the spiritual warfare that continues to this day. Plenty of old history books document war. We believe these without hesitation because they don't challenge us to examine ourselves.
We believe textbooks the same way. Many of them are very old. Much of what we believe ancient scientists did comes from writings that are even older than the bible. We believe them...why would they lie? What would they have to gain? The 20th chapter of the book of John closes with this statement "These things have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in his name." There you have it...we don't say anything for ourselves. It's for others...not our own nirvana, or karma, or any other self-centered level of spiritual achievement. The first centuries writers had nothing to gain personally...only an early death. The modern church, if it is trying to control anybody (and some are) is not in compliance with what Zoo and I believe. Frankly, the world is far less tolerant of us than the other way around.
There was a comment a ways back about slavery. Personal study of the word servent you are referring to...I forget who wrote it (sorry), and further study of historical evidence will show a different kind of slavery than the egyptian/hebrew, or pre civil war america slavery. The bible condoned servant-master relationship is not cruel or oppressive. Many times a servant would choose to stay with his master once he or she was freed, due to the family-like treatment they recieved. The servant would then voluntarily pledge allegiance by having an ear peirced with the earring of the master, which was worn for life.
Spiff, as for the ACLU, they want everyone to have a right to say and do anything they please...except for Christians, who must delete practices they have had since the founding of the nation to avoid offending anyone. The constitution was designed to prevent people from harming each other by violating rights already in place from higher authority, before the government was even in place. Exactly how does displaying the Ten Commandments harm someone when all the words in them are the foundation of our legal system? Go ahead and try, there is no way to show it does, regardless of what agency you place them in...government or civilian.
Do you think your rights come from the constitution? The founding fathers didn't. They, and I, claim rights to be "inalienable" Or from God. If you don't believe in God, subtitute the word "automatic." The constitution doesn't give you rights. You have them already. The ACLU is really good at making people think your rights are being removed if someone (A Christian, for example) does something you don't want to deal with in public. Then they fight to get the constitution changed to remove the right of the other person. This almost seems okay, doesn't it? Almost right is the easiest way to creep anything into a society. YOU CANNOT ARGUE ON THE SIDE OF CHRISTIANITY AND THE ACLU AT THE SAME TIME! This is the epitome if hypocricy (acting one way while actually being another)...the most overused "weapon word" of liberals against Christianity (Exept the liberal Christians, of course...
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Different subject for a second, not directed at any individual. I've often wondered why anyone with "no blelief" would fight with great passion on the side of disbelief? Who cares? If you really have no beliefs, what is the argument for? What is the prize if you win it? Eternal emptiness or nothing at all? Go ahead, go for it. We can only try to show what we believe, and why. It seems believing nothing would be even harder, since there's no evidence of it at all. Or is it so easy, because no thought is required whatsoever? No accountability. No "little voice inside." The bible says God is evidenced in all creation (My paraphrase...It's too hard to be an accident, since we're still figuring it out a little at a time...look at how smart we are!) I guess those who believe nothing don't need any basis for that. Maybe someone who belives nothing can help me out with this one...I'm pretty lost on the concept.
Then, There's the "mix and match" belief system. Little bit of this, little bit of that...a good God would never send me to Hell. We are made in His image, according to the Bible. So, we have his attributes. We hire and fire, praise and discipline. We choose who we will hang around with. If we are spiritual beings (I believe we are) God, being the supreme spiritual being, will choose who he spends eternity with. I ask you, who would you choose? The ones who believe the whole bible, or the ones who pick and choose the parts that "work for them."
I totally agree, this concept REQUIRES faith. You have to believe it, or none of it works at all. I have faith, and believe the whole bible. I could never accept a God I could understand fully, and wonder why so many people reject the bible because it doesn't fully explain Him. Do you need a God who's no more powerful than you? Does He have to be accountable to you in such a way that you decide if his actions are appropriate? This would be a complete role reversal, and is the very heart of the concept of "civil liberties." A society where we decide right and wrong for ourselves, disregarding all written wisdom..it just happens to be the bible because that's what the founding fathers used.
These are interesting discussions...Am I staying kind? I mean to be. The bible also says "show me your faith without works, and I will show you my faith BY my works. James 2:18" This doesn't mean I can work my way into heaven...It means I want everybody to go there and will work toward that goal, according to my understanding of the way. I believe Jesus is that way.
I could never work to convince anybody to throw off belief for non-belief, but am interested in presenting a complete faith-based belief to
anyone who will have faith. The bible is complex enough to study every day for your entire adult life, and continue to learn something every time you open it. That's what convinced me it's inspired by God. I also pray for his word when I read it, so he can apply it to my life. The goal is not to get book smart and win arguements, but to show what's in there to those who don't know.
I know someone is reading this right now thinking "I know what's in the bible..I read it and it didn't do anything for me." You should read it again and ask God what you are supposed to do with what's in there...not what it can do for you. In churches, people say " I'm just not being fed" as an excuse for quitting Sunday scool, or even the church. The simple fact is, the bible will speak to you if you open your heart. Even a baby can't be fed if it keeps its mouth closed. I guess I ramble..I just was shocked at the number of pages I missed from a couple of busy days.
I'm trying to stay focused on kindness. Spiff, I don't mean to single you out for attack. I know I started it, and I assure you I mean no ill will to a brother. I feel like you want freedom, not civil liberty. They are easy to mix up these days. If you are a Christian as you are alluding...you are free already, and don't need the ACLU's help. Defend Christ, the ACLU will be fine on its own. If there is even one example of a liberty they fight for in contrast to your core belief, they are not anyone to follow. As a Christian, I'm sure you'll agree we are called to contend for the faith, and invite you to read Ephesians 5:1-21, and 6:14-18. In this time, these words are the ones that remind me of what's going on around us.
I am not implying only Christians are free in this country, before anyone gets offended. I use this verbage with Spiff in reference to the earlier posts, nothing more.
Jeff, I disagree that using the body's waste elimination system as a form of pleasure derivation does no harm to anybody. What about prison rape? Most of those guys are'nt gay, so where did they get the idea from?
Simply using the anatomical proximity of the assotiated nerve endings for convenience is pretty creative, but totally unecessary for humanity to survive, or have pleasure surviving. It also increases the spread of Aids to a larger number of people. I think the concept of "in the closet" came from the inherent ability of those in there to realize they didn't want people knowing about it. I think there is psychological damage, from discussing this with those who switched back. It seems to me that the incredibly complex sexual responses of men and women complement each other nicely, and lend themselves well to the perpetuation of the species. "Be fruitful and multiply" is the theme of God's plan for man on the earth, and the vehicle needed to be 1. pleasant enough to make up for labor pains, and 2. renewable as needed.
Why does the bible have so much homosexuality in it, and always show disastrous consequences? It isn't because the church assembled books that did that. The bulk of the Bible is about something else. No, the Homosexuality is only sprinkled in when man really ticked God off, and not every time. It's no hate plan...i't's just ancient history. Homosexuality and lesbianism contribute nothing to the perpetuation of mankind Degradation of the one thing that keeps us still here on the planet into a system for self gratification seems a little shallow, even for non-believers. Everything in moderation...even too much heterosexual sex can have humiliating impact on people. It just depends.
As for gay couples adopting children as a contribution to society, and a right...if they teach them to be gay (yes it can be taught)....still, no contribution to humanity except more battling for more "rights."
Even if it appears there is a "right " to be gay, it doesn't automatically lend itself to other rights. Parents earn the right to be parents by having children...that's how you get that inalienable right. That right is also taken away when children are abused.
We seem so condescending in type-written words. I guess that's a statement on the impersonal feeling the internet can take on. When I was in the Air Force, e-mail was just beginning to happen. Suddenly officers who never had a word to say became heavy-handed hammer personalities via e-mail. Some of them were taking advantage of the anonymity, but others just had problems warming up the writing. I think we can all keep an eye on that and have a really deep discussion....and this is quite deep...I mean that in the good way. See how easy it would be to slip?
Anyway, I'm back for a couple days...got some Job prospects, and playing a little waiting game til the first of the year so I can follow up on a resume' I sent out yesterday. Brief update.
Mike 
