I'm beginning to be less and less enthusiastic about the MSF

[ZooTech]

The above is so sad that it's not even worth my time to argue against.

It's all right, I know you have no response. If you could explain how my dad had been riding motorcycles since the early 60's, with no training and no knowledge of countersteering until a discussion I brought up late last summer, perhaps you could argue your little "it's not instinct" argument. It may not be hard-wired into our brains since birth like the infant and nipple example, but anything you do without thinking about it (and especially without even knowing about it) is pretty much instinctual in my book. Sending fresh noobs into a series of cones with this brand-new and counter-intuitive concept of "turn left, go right" (but only above a certain, undefined speed) is adding an element of anxiety that has no business being there.

[Sev]

in·stinct Audio pronunciation of "instinct" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nstngkt)
n.

1. An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli: the spawning instinct in salmon; altruistic instincts in social animals.
2. A powerful motivation or impulse.


And you do not have to be aware of what you're doing to know how to do it. More then likely your father was either: A) self taught or B) shown the ropes by a friend.

So I'd suspect that he gradually over time learned that simply pushing one hand out made the bike turn more readily then the other hand. It's basically a trial and error style of learning as opposed to an analytical do this, and this will happen style.

Then again you seem pretty in favour of just tossing the cards and seeing where they end up in everything that you do.

Over time motions can become reflex but this takes practise and repetition to the point at which analysis is no longer necessary. I for one find that when I first get back out there on the road after a long break I need to remind myself to look around the corner and push out the correct hand to make the tight turns. 10 or 15 minutes and I'm not thinking about it anymore. Given more years in the saddle even this will not happen.

Of course according to you, if I were to somehow drop a random person who had never ridden anything bigger then a pedalbike onto a motorcycle doing 30kmh they would "instinctively" countersteer.

Just because he doesn't have the terms for it, or realize that he's doing it, does not mean your dad didn't train himself to do so. Otherwise no one would have any problems with countersteering. Ever. Because it's an instinct. Babies don't need to be taught to suck. And bikers don't need to learn how to ride.

[ZooTech]

in·stinct Audio pronunciation of "instinct" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nstngkt)
n.

1. An inborn pattern of behavior that is characteristic of a species and is often a response to specific environmental stimuli: the spawning instinct in salmon; altruistic instincts in social animals.
2. A powerful motivation or impulse.

im·pulse ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mpls)
n.

A sudden wish or urge that prompts an unpremeditated act or feeling

Yup. That about sums it up.

More then likely your father was either: A) self taught or B) shown the ropes by a friend.

Nope and nope. My dad walked-in to a dealer having never ridden before, plunked down the cash, and learned to ride on the way home. When I brought up countersteering last year (as a result of an earlier thread) he didn't believe a word I was saying. He had to take a ride for himself and watch the triple-tree in the turns to see what I was talking about.

So I'd suspect that he gradually over time learned that simply pushing one hand out made the bike turn more readily then the other hand. It's basically a trial and error style of learning as opposed to an analytical do this, and this will happen style.

You have to steer normally at slow speeds (turn left to go left) and once you're up to speed who has time or desire to think of such things?

Then again you seem pretty in favour of just tossing the cards and seeing where they end up in everything that you do.

Examples? (this ought to be entertaining)

Over time motions can become reflex but this takes practise and repetition to the point at which analysis is no longer necessary.

Or perhaps it never was necessary.

Of course according to you, if I were to somehow drop a random person who had never ridden anything bigger then a pedalbike onto a motorcycle doing 30kmh they would "instinctively" countersteer.

Damn straight they would. But you just want a cookie for "mastering" something that anyone can and would do, whether you told them to or not.

Just because he doesn't have the terms for it, or realize that he's doing it, does not mean your dad didn't train himself to do so.

What about if he flat denies that he does it? What then?

Otherwise no one would have any problems with countersteering. Ever.

Who does? Name someone (especially if they are now deceased) that rode into a tight curve and turned the bars the wrong way because they hadn't studied well enough the night before. No one countersteers because they know to do so, or because someone told them to. The only reason anyone here is even aware of it is because the MSF people seem to feel it's necessary to bring it up, when obviously it's not.

[Pin_Cushion]

If you could explain how my dad had been riding motorcycles since the early 60's, with no training and no knowledge of countersteering until a discussion I brought up late last summer

I can explain it in one word. "Luck." Sure, if you practice you'll eventually figure out the most effective way to drive a bike. It's just how you develop a skill. The down side is while you're figuring it out you're very likely to do an awful lot of things wrong. You're very likely to try a lot of things that work poorly or not at all (i.e. steering with weight instead of countersteering). You're very likely to develop a lot of bad habits surrounding things that aren't critical most of the time, but can become critical some of the time (i.e. braking in a turn). If you drive long enough, and really practice and examine how you drive every time you drive then eventually you'll get it right. That is assuming you're lucky enough to survive the break-in period.

Now, nobody is saying you can't take the "do-it-yourself" option. It's what I've done, and apparently what you and your father have done. Even so, a much safer route is to simply pay an expert to teach you the right way to do things the first time. That way there is no trail and error on the open road. There is only the awkwardness of learning a new, unfamiliar skill. Personally, I intend to take the MSF course eventually. I know it's probably a dumb decision, but it's what I'm doing. I would strongly encourage every single person intending to buy a motorcycle to take the MSF course ASAP, or at the very least read a few books on the subject of safe motorcycling. This hobby is far too dangerous to rely on luck, no matter how many people have done so in the past.

[Sev]

More then likely your father was either: A) self taught or B) shown the ropes by a friend.

Nope and nope. My dad walked-in to a dealer having never ridden before, plunked down the cash, and learned to ride on the way home. When I brought up countersteering last year (as a result of an earlier thread) he didn't believe a word I was saying. He had to take a ride for himself and watch the triple-tree in the turns to see what I was talking about.

Thanks, I think you just proved something here. He didn't learn how to ride, and he didn't have someone show him how. He learned on the way home? Wait, but you just said he didn't teach himself to ride. Are you suffering Alzhiemers?

Eh, I've made my point, and I'm confident in it as opposed to yours. Though by all means, drop one of your kids of a bike doing 30 and see if they can "instinctively" pilot the thing around a corner.

There are a couple of posts on here about something like that. One was by a guy who was teaching his friend to ride, but never went over countersteering. During slowspeed parking lot stuff, he kept it like a pedal bike and handled turns fine. As soon as they went to leave he bailed on the first corner, because he tried to steer into the turn. I'll start checking, but me thinks it's from before the wipe.

[jmillheiser]

I didn't have any problems picking up countersteering. Actually I think the countersteering exercises were the most fun part of the MSF course.

One of my MSF instructors gave me a good comparison between a person who knows about coutersteering and a person who doesn't.

A person who doesn't know about countersteering is going to turn their bike by leaning their body, the bike will turn as there will be some countersteer input there, the rider is also going to wear themself out on a twisty road. If they have to swerve to avoid something they may not be able to move their body fast enough to get the bike to respond as fast as needed.

A person who knows how to countersteer will be primarily using their hands to steer the bike and wont need to move around as much on their bike, basically they get the same result for less effort. In the event they need to swerve a simple movement of the hands is sufficient to swerve the bike.

[ZooTech]

More then likely your father was either: A) self taught or B) shown the ropes by a friend.

Nope and nope. My dad walked-in to a dealer having never ridden before, plunked down the cash, and learned to ride on the way home. When I brought up countersteering last year (as a result of an earlier thread) he didn't believe a word I was saying. He had to take a ride for himself and watch the triple-tree in the turns to see what I was talking about.

Thanks, I think you just proved something here. He didn't learn how to ride, and he didn't have someone show him how. He learned on the way home? Wait, but you just said he didn't teach himself to ride. Are you suffering Alzhiemers?

"Taught himself to ride" implied reading about proper motorcycing or something that mentioned countersteering. That was, after all, the point you were in pursuit of.

My point was that he, my two friends, and I all learned to ride without cracking open a single book or taking advice from anyone. Countersteering was something we all became aware of well after obtaining a license. You say it has to be learned before taking a turn above the magic speed, and I know that to be untrue. By the time someone has been riding for years without knowing they've been countersteering the whole time, telling them about it amounts to nothing more than revealing an interesting factoid.

[blues2cruise]

I knew nothing about riding a motorcycle before taking the MSF course. The school included road riding sessions.
As was said, though, not all schools are created equal and some instructors are better than others.

After several thousand km of riding I was still having some problems on highway speed sharp turns and after I got some pointers about countersteering my riding improved dramatically.

It may be intuitive for a select few but it's not necessarily intuitive for all.

[Sev]

You'll notice in one of my above posts it said trial and error. As in you try something and it doesn't work so you try something else. In teaching yourself to ride.

Do not put words in my mouth.

[sapaul]

I cannot agree on this issue of counter steering not being in an MSF course, to comment that introducing it to Noobs would just confuse them implies that the Noobs are incapable of absorbing the information, or even stupid. We have non riders on this forum that as yet, have no motorcycle but are fully aware of the principles.

I too was not aware of the principles of counter steering until I was taught and this has made me a better rider and twice has saved a potentially nasty situation.

I do agree that some, not all, will counter steer intuitively, but some will go down because of the lack of skill or knowledge. A comment on another thread was that because of age, a person was too embarresed to go on rider courses. Every course I have been on I have learned something, maybe because I was open to the learning, and I have never been treated as an idiot by any of my instructors.