skinnyjoint wrote: "fudge" that shoot hockey
Don't we pride ourselves on human rights? Wasn't that one of the selling points for the war on terror from President's Bush's speech? Go to the White House website and take a look at it. Sure we violate them as often as everyone else, but we also make a huge effort as a country to rectify those problems.
MrGompers wrote: I think Mexico needs to look within their own country first. If I were the President of Mexico I would be concerned that so many of my citizens are leaving their country.
Yep, I agree.
Shiv wrote: "We were all immigrants at one point in time." So let's all just move away from here. The natives weren't exactly here first either. Ice bridge. Russia. Alaska. Bering Strait.
I'm sorry I think you misunderstood my point. Let me rehash it for you. This is a country built on immigration; if you're born here obviously you're American. However, we acknowledge and value our emigrational past hence memorials such as the Statue of Liberty. After all, we have to acknowledge and remember why our ancestors did decide to come here: some to escape persecution, others for economic advancement and opportunities to better their children's lives. We also ideologically embrace the idea of immigration, even though it does cause social and economic problems. I mean take a look at the phenomenon of the hyphenated-American. We obviously are proud of our ethnic roots.
Shiv wrote: I'm sorry but why don't all the Mexicans just go back to Mexico? The turnout in Dallas alone was a small army. They could easily over throw the current government and establish the kind they want.
I know we disagree on to whom the constitution applies, but examine the document and show me where it discourages immigration. It also guarantees the right to assemble. These movements were non-violent protests that had acquired legal permits to be there. While you're welcome to disagree with them, think of it as allowing the Neo-party's to march through town. I can't stand those morons, yet they march through here on a regular basis. Guess what if we stopped them from marching because we didn't like what they had to say, I'd be very upset. That's one of the best things about living here.
Shiv wrote: Oh and one last bit. I'm sick of people comparing this to how blacks were treated. That was an issue over unequal treatment of citizens. The illegals ARE NOT citizens. They have no rights here minus the basic rights of human beings. Or not until the people in D.C. cave in. These guys aren't even citizens, they're illegal. They just waltzed over and went 'treat me equally'.
My comparison to the Civil Rights movement was simply to illustrate that what is illegal is not necessarily moral, and it ended there. In the Declaration of Independence it states, "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
So we really have to examine that if all humans are created with certain unalienable rights, but live in a country that does not allow them to pursue those rights, do we then have an obligation to help them achieve those rights? Yes yes, I'm well aware of the world's policemen issue here and how spending all our resources and time then deteriorates the United States argument. In this case we're simply applying it to people who immigrate here pursuing these rights.
Shiv wrote: The only thing I see resulting from this is a lot more US citizens, because you know the government will give in after a while, and then everyone needing to learn a second language to accomodate our new 'citizens'.
One of the oddities in our nation's history has been that our borders have not been pushed at by other cultures to the extent other civilizations have been in the past. Due to the vast distances, prior to industrialization we were not really forced to learn another language. Yet now we're moving into a world that's ever more globalized (for better and for worse) that requires people to speak more than one language. Most other countries start second language education around First Grade, makes a hell of a lot of sense. What's so terrible about learning another language, and being able to communicate more clearly?
On the other hand I agree that at times a lot of immigrants do not learn English as quickly as we would like them to. However, most of them understand it quite clearly and are embarrassed by how they speak it. Children assimilate the most easily, since they don't get embarrassed in the same way adults do when we F up.
Look it's a very complex issue, and I'm looking forward to hearing from others on it. To wrap it up, the way I see it is it all boils down to do we believe all humans should have the rights we have outline in our Constitution? Hopefully we do, and that's when the "@#@" really hits the fan cause it sure gets complicated.
mexicans are sending money back to mexico making that government stronger
