Couple of questions about riding

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earwig
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#41 Unread post by earwig »

Sev, i understand that but i dont think that is what he was referring to. Maybe this person can explain it best.. the part i am talking about: http://www.obairlann.net/~reaper/bmw-bi ... ering.html

when he says " However, next time you're travelling at speed (over about 30 MPH on a motorcycle, or as fast as you can get going on a bicycle) and traffic around you is very sparse -- ideally on a completely deserted road -- try pushing on one side of the handlebars. Just a slight and even pressure on one side. The bike will immediately start leaning toward the side you were pushing on. Now, try pushing on the other side. The bike stands right back up. That's the essence of countersteering.

Now, this is the part where many people call "bullfeathers!" on the whole countersteering thing. Most experts explain countersteering as if it were the only thing in the world you needed to know about steering a bike. It's not. You use countersteering to lean over, and then, most of the time, you steer into the turn! Countersteering is mostly useful for getting you leaned over, a great deal of the time. (Note that at high enough speeds, you actually countersteer all the way through a turn, because the higher the speed, the stronger those upright-pulling forces are. But that's a different thing, I'm writing for street riders, not racers; go away kid, you bother me.)"
Sevulturus wrote:Countersteer is the action of pushing out on the inside handlebar to create a turn.

Which is to say you push out on the left handlebar turning the wheel to the right which makes you go left. It has nothing to do with body position.

It is called COUNTERSTEERING because by basic logic with the front wheel pointing right you should be going RIGHT.


What you are thinking of is counterweighting or counter balancing, where you put pressure on the outside peg of the bike to make sure that you don't tip over in a slow speed turn. Which isn't really something that you need to do in the first place, more of a crutch then anything else.

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Sev
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#42 Unread post by Sev »

Get your lean, then remove pressure from the bars, you stand right back up.

As long as you keep that wheel cocked to the side you will continue to lean, the reason your pic doesn't show the wheel turned to the side is because he is coming out of his turn and straightening out the wheel to come out of his lean.

I'll say again, get leaned over, then remove pressure from the bars or take them back to neutral, you'll stand right back up.
Of course I'm generalizing from a single example here, but everyone does that. At least I do.

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earwig
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#43 Unread post by earwig »

You are totally right and I am mentally challenged. I guess I do it without thinking as I haven't wiped out at the track yet and msf is a distant memory. I agree you have to countersteer to initiate a turn... but once turning I will stick to it that you are more leaning and turning into the turn.

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#44 Unread post by Kal »

What we need is some tape, a camera on a bike mount and a willing volunteer...


The unnerving thing about the trike is it dosnt lean and so dosnt counter steer which means I can feel the full force of the turn trying to highside me.

I've shot a couple of corners wide because I've had to straighten the steering out to avoid highsiding - and these werent severe corners and I wasnt doing more than 40 or so. These are corners that I can make easily on a bike.

Going into a corner and through the corner, say a lefthander, most of your weight is taken by the left hand - which because of the pivot between frame and forks pushes the handlebars and wheel to the right.

As we exit we reditribute our weight evenly on the bars which pivots the front wheel back to a neutral position and sits the bike up.

I agree with Zootech, the degrees that the bars move arent massive at most speeds for most corners. In fact the first time I came across this arguement I think it was because of Zootech that I took a couple of strips of electrical tape to my bike and found somewhere quiet to play.


On another note, how was the honeymoon?
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#45 Unread post by SuperRookie »

This is INSANE. I can't believe this argument has gone on for 5 pages. Still confusing 'counterSTEERING' with 'counterLEANING'. Once a bike is moving more than 10-15mph or so you must countersteer to turn the bike. There's simply no other way. It may even be less than that...about 6mph considering that from a dead stop at a light, I can ease the clutch out and once I move forward a bit can push the right bar and she'll lean right over, smoothly roll on a bit of throttle and make a tight right turn.

For a MUCH tighter turn from a dead stop I would turn the bar to a full lock, ease the clutch out and counterlean. Counterleaning helps. It makes slow speed turning maneuvers 'easier' but is not entirely necessary.

In an earlier post in this thread I mentioned that lack of cornering skills is a leading cause of mc crashes. This lack of cornering skill is rooted in a poor understanding of countersteering. Forget about the physics part of it and that the location of the contact patch changes, etc. If you find yourself into a corner and are going a little wide, you go ahead nad hang your body off a little more without pushing on the bars to initiate more lean and see where you end up.
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#46 Unread post by NEWBIE51 »

Hell guys, I havent even taken these courses yet....and I know the differnce between counter steering and counter leaning....

I am just going to got take the course and I will figure it out...like I said before its probably an instinctive thing. And here is some food for thought to to this link and watch the movie...THIS IS COUNTERSTEERING!!!!

http://www.vsa.cape.com/~wayg/mrep/pics/csteer.mpg


And then once you get your lean by COUNTERSTEERING you then continue that lean or create more lean by leaning farther over...once you get to a point where you want to come out of the turn just move the bars to neautral and it will stnad up on its own.

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#47 Unread post by SuperRookie »

It's not that you 'create more lean by leaning farther over'...you create more lean by PUSHING more on the bar. You don't really need to 'move the bars' to a neutral position to 'stand the bike up' so that you can go straight. The bike already WANTS to go straight. You ease pressure off the grip and the bike will stand up. You'll see.
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#48 Unread post by vulcanguy »

Newbie51....................You need to know that below 15mph you steer the bike and counter lean. Above 15mph you countersteer and lean with the bike.......that's it !!!! just that simple accept it as fact !!!!!

All of the rest of these posts are just going to confuse you !!!!!!
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#49 Unread post by DivideOverflow »

earwig wrote:You are totally right and I am mentally challenged. I guess I do it without thinking as I haven't wiped out at the track yet and msf is a distant memory. I agree you have to countersteer to initiate a turn... but once turning I will stick to it that you are more leaning and turning into the turn.

Your actual leaning forces the bike to lean over due to the change in center of gravity, thus moving the contact patch on the wheel. You are actually counter steering the whole time.. Most people don't even realize they do it.

If I lean to the left, just by shifting my weight it is technically forcing me to push on the left bar. It feels like what you are doing is keeping it straight, but the bars are not centered. This is also assuming a flat surface... if the track/road is angled, it might take less of a steer to hit the correct contact patch on the tires.

Most people have the right idea here. Earwig, you just seem a bit confused about it.

Also, you aren't doing normal turning once you are leaned, the fact that you ARE leaned over means you are currently counter steering...
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Kim
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#50 Unread post by Kim »

Newbie,

I can't blame you for being confused. There are too many conflicting opinions.

I think the best answer is to take the MSF course. You will learn countersteering and get comfortable with it first hand. It's much easier to learn while actually doing it than trying to make heads or tails out of the different answers here. :D
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