The counter-steering questions

[t_bonee]

Other than the what kinda bike/is this a good bike questions, I've noticed that a lot of the questions posted in the Beginners forum is about counter-steering.

I wonder what everyones experiences on this is.

To me, it just came naturally. I've never thought about it. I don't think about it. Not when to do it or not to do it. It just happens.

I wonder if this may be a subject that folks tend to over think. I was at a party a couple weeks ago, and a friend of mine's dad and I were trying to explain to a non rider what counter-steering was. He could not grasp it. I told him that if he was on a motorcycle that he would probably just "get it", and he refused to believe that, said he couldn't grasp the concept.

So what say you all?

[CORSCO]

I say for quick reactions, you push on the bar in the direction you want to go = counter steering, I don't know what all the hub-bub is all about. It's like when customers come into the shop and want a powerband installed. I ask them what color, the blue or the green?

[ZooTech]

Thinking too hard tends to spoil the ride. If you're properly "connected" with the bike, you don't need to consciously do anything.

[bok]

personally, i think people countersteer easier than they can describe "How" they steer.

it does come kind of naturally until you stop to think about it and then it gets confusing.

at least that's how it is for me

[Kal]

Shockingly I am once again in tune with Zootech.

Countersteering comes as a function of leaning the bike, but when pople think about counter steering it all becomes aq bit complicated. It doesn't make any sense.

[Sev]

my first experience was having the MSF instructor saying, okay push your left hand out hard while you're going, then do the same with the right, and heeling the bike over, then back the other way. I was hooked.

Then one of the girls was having trouble doing it, so he threw her on the back of an enduro and proceded to scrape the pegs of the bike at 20kmh with her on the back using countersteering.

[SuperRookie]

Shockingly I am once again in tune with Zootech.

Countersteering comes as a function of leaning the bike, .

Maybe it's just me...but I totally disagree with this statement. How can countersteering come as a function of leaning the bike when it's countersteering that causes the bike to lean?

[dieziege]

It isn't a simple relationship.

I have spent a bit of time playing around with this on my new bike. At moderate speeds (20-35) you can execute significant (good enough for following a curvy road, though I wasn't on a road when I practiced this) turns with your hands OFF the bars. This is probably true for higher speeds but my "Test area" was too small to go much faster no-handed. This included sudden maneuvers suitable for avoiding potholes.

OTOH, countersteering is MUCH better (bordering on necessary) for abrupt changes at all speeds. On top of that, countersteering offers another huge advantage: it allows you to control the coupling of your mass to the bike's. In other words, you have the choice of pushing left and tilt your torso right to stay upright as the bike swerves under you, or pushing left and staying "fixed" so your mass follows the bike over to the left, or pushing left and leaning further left "knee dragger" fashion. These refine how the bike turns in ways that are difficult to describe quickly but quite useful.

It is like bicycle riding... at low speeds if you want to do a tight turn you pretty much need to get up off the seat and stand on the high pedal as you rock the bike under you. The problem with the bicycle comparisons is that bikes are so light you typically just do whatever you want with muscle power.

Trying to reverse engineer what I'm doing, it seems clear that all maneuvers from walking pace upwards are using a combination of push and body position to do what I want. At lower speeds the body position is countering the bike lean (so that the bike can lean without dyinamic stability holding it up) where at higher speeds I may actually be leaning a bit into the turn (so my mass better counters the dynamic stability).

The MSF course I took sucked for actually practicing countersteering. Yeah, they mentioned it repeatedly, but we never had enough time at speed to play with it. One of the "coaches" said something like "I passed the course, then got on the highway and said 'what is this countersteering BS they were talking about?' and pushed the bar, and sure enough the bike leaned...." as in HE hadn't picked it up in his MSF course and he wasn't expecting us to in ours either.

[scan]

The MSF course I took sucked for actually practicing countersteering. Yeah, they mentioned it repeatedly, but we never had enough time at speed to play with it. One of the "coaches" said something like "I passed the course, then got on the highway and said 'what is this countersteering BS they were talking about?' and pushed the bar, and sure enough the bike leaned...." as in HE hadn't picked it up in his MSF course and he wasn't expecting us to in ours either.

I thought I'd add something regarding MSF training too. When I was in my class they had us sit on the bike with the stand up (using our feet to stay upright). He had us push the right handle bar and the bike went slightly right, even with the wheel starting to point left. The bike wanted to fall to the right.

Agreeing to the "over-thinking" point, I think you need to understand that there is a force at work that you can use to your advantage. I can hand steer my bike to about 20 MPH, where the tire is pointing the way I'm going. Once faster, I tent to pull on my bars instead of push, but I do know it is very effective for tightening curves.

[bok]

posted this in another topic on countersteering but figured the more the merrier:

for those who want to see countersteering in play at sub 40 kmph speeds, check out the three countersteering pics i have in the TMW Flickr group. these three shots were taken at a local Motorcycle Safety course.

Countersteering 1
Countersteering 2
Countersteering 3