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Posted: **Thu May 11, 2006 9:00 pm**

camthepyro wrote:Alright, nothing against you personally Mr Gompers, because you seem like a decent guy and I like you, but your reasoning is just naive.

camthepyro wrote:After 9/11, we as a country realized how vulnerable we were to terrorist attacks. If we hadn't done anything about it, we'd just be showing all the terrorists out there that they can knock down buildings, kill people, etc. with out any drastic counsequences. That's not the signal we need to be sending.

I grew up with terrorism a reality. I wasn’t concerned about the USSR and communism - I was concerned that the IRA were going to bomb my local Shopping Centre (It has an Army recruiting Office outside)

So I guess I have a very different view point to you Cam, and I find yours naive.

Our Security forces tried everything they could but the lessons learned were there will always be MORE terrorists. Terrorists do not live in isolation, they are people with friends and families. When you kill these men they have friends or family that are convinced of the righteousness of their cause and they pick up the work that the terrorist you killed has left undone.

It isn't just the UK. The war between Israeli Security Forces and the Palestinians has been going on longer than I have been alive.

As much as we all desire a simple easy fix and above all quick fix it isn’t going to happen. History repeatedly shows us that in this kind of combat Main Force does not work - don't believe me? Read war of the flea, which I believe is still required reading for US Special Forces personnel.

These terrorists do not see themselves as bad people. They see themselves as soldiers, freedom fighters, willing to do what is necessary against incredible odds to secure victory.

In the David and Goliath myth it isn’t Goliath that is the hero, and these terrorists see themselves as David not Goliath.

The key to victory against terrorists is the hearts and minds of the population that spawn them. If the population rejects the terrorists they are undone, they cannot exist and that is one thing Main Force cannot do. Use of Main Force against the population that the terrorists exist in only confirms to others in the population that the terrorists cause is right.

camthepyro wrote:It should be up to private orginizations to take care of things like AIDS cures, and things like that.

It's not in a private organisations interest to create cures. Private organisations exist to make money - period. If you cure someone it's a one time deal - they are cured end of story and end of the money.

If however you don't cure someone but do prolong their life then you have a lifelong customer and the money rolls in. This is exactly where Governments should be spending our taxes (and to be fair they do - just not enough), picking up the areas where it s not in Private Organisations interest to provide cures.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2006 9:12 pm**

Kal you picked a hot topic with the IRA. Being an American I'm not exactly sure how that battle came about. So, I can't speak on it with authority.

On the subject of govt and disease we are in agreement. It's certainly not in the interest of private companies to find cures or vaccinces. What was the last disease that was actually cured ? Small Pox in the 1970's ?

Jeez how long has diabetes been around ? They haven't made any progress with that yet ? (Excluding the insulin injections tho that you need your entire life nice way to guarantee revenue)
How long has Jerry's Kid's been limping around 25 yrs ? Nothing on MS, MD, or cerebal palsy yet ?

But, they developed the hard-on pill no problem. What a sham.

The whole phama industry could be a whole new thread.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2006 9:45 pm**

Trying to bring this back on topic.

I have no problem with the govt collecting data on phone calls, internet access, library books checked out, or any other data under one condition.

I AND EVERY OTHER MEMBER OF SOCIETY ALSO HAVE ACCESS TO THAT DATA. I want to know what my elected officals are up to as well especially GWB. I would have GWB under 24/7 watch.

Who watches the watchers ?

Until that condition is met I oppose all govt surveillance no matter how small.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2006 9:59 pm**

Ok, I'm going to say one more time, just to make sure everyone's clear on this, I am in no way attacking any of you personally, lets just keep this a friendly debate.

Anway, here goes.

Mr Gompers:

As far as money goes. The govt collects my money as well as others money.
I/we have no say in how its spent. I do not want my money paying for war or the illusion of protection from terrorism. That money can be better spent elsewhere.

You do have a say in how it's spent, that's why we have elections.

Yes, there is the whole Cold War similarity, but I wasn't alive during the Cold War, so I don't know alot of what went on. But I do agree that the whole war (if you even consider it a war, which I don't) was a pointless waste of time and money. But I also don't think what's going on now has much to do with the Cold War, besides the money issue, which is a matter of opinion whether it's a waste or not.

Right now the govt mantra is "how much of your freedom are you willing to give up to increase your protection"? my answer is NONE. I am willing to take the risk that the terrorists will get me. I highly doubt they will get me & I fear disease, traffic, & drug addicted people far more that I do terrorists.

I don't see how I'm giving up any of my personal freedoms for the government currently. Sure, they may tap my phone, which, yes, I do believe is wrong. But, it's not affecting me at all, so I'm not too worried about it if it's going to do something to protect America as a whole.

And no, I'm not personally afraid of terrorists, but I'm also not afraid of disease, or drug addicted people (hell, I used to be one).

Since your still young you prolly haven't broke away from your parents view points yet. Once you get to college you certainly will tho

I don't think I really follow my parents views, simply because they're my parents views. I agree with my parents on some things, and disagree with them on alot of things. My father and step-mother are both hard-core, super-conservative, right wing republicans, and I think alot of what they think is completely illogical and unfounded. And I have no idea what my mother and step-fathers political views even are.

In the meantime heres some books that you mite find interesting. Maybe you have read some of them already.

1984 - George Orwell
Animal Farm - George Orwell
Brave New World - Aldous Huxley (gotta love that in the year of our Ford bit)
Atlas Shrugged - Ayn Rand
Fahrenheit 451 - Ray Bradbury (yes thats the creator of Star Trek)
Any speech written by Abraham Lincoln
The Communists Manifesto - Karl Marx
Wealth of Nations - Adam Smith (father of economics) if you go to college and study business you'll have to read this anyway.
The Jungle - Upton Sinclair (deals with meat industry & the immigrants who work in it).
The Grapes of Wrath - John Steinbeck (more immigrants & their plight)
Anything by ARISTOTLE especially, "The Ethics of Aristotle", and "Politics"
The Art of War - Sun Tzu
The Bible (but only for historical reference)

I haven't read many of those, but I've read:

Brave New World - possibly the worst book I've ever read

Some of Abraham Lincoln's speeches (damn history class)

Parts of the Communist Manifesto

The Jungle - very good book

The Grapes of Wrath - not a real big Steinback fan

Some of Aristotles writings - for some report or another

And lots of the Bible (for non-historical reasons)

Kal,

True, there will always be more terrorists, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything about them. That's like saying "they'll always be more weeds in the lawn, so let's not do anything about the ones that are already there."

It's not in a private organisations interest to create cures. Private organisations exist to make money - period. If you cure someone it's a one time deal - they are cured end of story and end of the money.

If however you don't cure someone but do prolong their life then you have a lifelong customer and the money rolls in. This is exactly where Governments should be spending our taxes (and to be fair they do - just not enough), picking up the areas where it s not in Private Organisations interest to provide cures.

I completely agree with you on this one, it isn't in the interest of private orginizations to find a cure, but it is in their interest to find some sort of treatment, which for diseases like AIDS, there are currently none. (although I read something about them having a breakthrough for some sort of virus that fights AIDS).

This whole debate sucks though, because I think I'll probably be the only one debating my side

[/quote]

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2006 10:29 pm**

The short, short version follows - it's the fault of the English

The English subjudgated the populations of Scotland, Wales and Ireland over a few hundred years. To this day strong independace movements exist in all three Countries and occasional acts of political crime still happen.

The Welsh occasionally burn the holiday homes of the English, and in return its still legal to shoot a welshman from the battlements of several English cities, as long as you use a longbow.

Anyways. Going back a few hundred years ago the Scots and Irish were rebelling at the same time. With the Scottish rebels being better organised and more accessible the English rode against them. However the only thing a Scot loves more than fighting the English is another Scot so Scotland was in a state of civil war with loyalist and rebels both flocking to the fight.

Now the Scots are mighty and the terrain favoured them so the wars were hard fought but in the end the English had the numbers and putdown the rebellian.

The loyalists were granted 'Clan tartans' and the lands of the defeated rebels. The English king then had a large number of defeated, dispossed Scots on his hands. Rather than put them to death he made them a deal.

The deal was to putdown the rebellian in Ireland and then rule it in his stead. They accepted, if only because the Scots were Protestant and the Irish Catholic.

The Scots being an army in their own right and with support of the English king brutally suppressed the Irish. The Scots then ruled Ireland and became the Irish protestants. This was the status quo for a long, long time.

Even this centuary the Protestants remained a political power in Ireland, they had the better jobs and the better education. The whole system although corrupt sustained itself. Every so often the Catholic Irish would get it together and rise up. The protestants with the aid of England would suppress the revolt.

With the advent of guns and funding from Catholic Irish who had gone abroad to escape the suppression a successful uprising happened Easter 1916. It was suppressed, violently - the leaders executed but not before they had proclaimed an Irish Republic.

The dead were proclaimed martyrs, and in following elections Sein Fenn, the Irish home rule party, was returned with a majority. The proestants fearing living in a Country where they were a minority forced the English to concede that if Ireland became independant then the Six counties of Ulster would remain in the Union.

The Irish Republican Army then fought the English and protestants until finally the English granted Ireland independance. This IRA would eventually become known as the Real IRA.

Fast forward 50 years and the two communities of Ulster were being terrorised by gangs of thugs, particlulary the Catholics by desendants of the Scots rebels. Retalitaions by gangs calling themselves the Irish Republican army were common.

In Ulster the Catholics were the minority and they pleaded their case to the Bristish Government. The English sent troops to police Ulster and to keep the peace. The Catholic community hailed the English troops as saviours.

The came the third Bloody Sunday of the Irish troubles. The first was 1913, the second 1920 but this third was 1972 and the birth of the Modern troubles for Ireland.

The Catholics marched, a peaceful demonstration - but one that had been banned by British authorities.

There is still no clear picture of what happened. What is beyond despute is that the Crowd assaulted the British baracades and threw bricks. What isnt so clear is if there were guns fired from within the crowd.

Regardless the Paratroopers, mostly young men without training in crowd suppression, fired into the crowd.

With the deaths of unarmed civilians the Catholic Community by and large turned from the English and the new IRA, known as the Provisional IRA gained huge support.

What followed was 25 years of reprisals, splinter groups and political terrorism by all three sides - the loyalists (Protesants), the Catholics (IRA) and the British Armed Forces.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2006 10:32 pm**

I can assure you CAM that you, me & other American citizens are currently giving up their rights altho not voluntarily. GWB et al. are stealing them.

See the patriot act
TIA (total information awareness)
Carnivore (email snooping)
Illegal wire tapping. Which GWB et al. are trying to say is ok based on the FISB rules. (foreign intelligence Surveillance Act) This was intended to only allow spying on foreign citizens. Now its being applied to US citizens without warrants.
Suspects being held without trial in the USA, Cuba & other locations.

I can appreciate that you say you have nothing to hide. How long do you think it will take for the govt to find something on you ? Especially, with this collecting of phone data going on. If the govt wants you they will get you.

As for the books I'm surprised you didn't like Brave New World. While it is a dystopia its actually kinda funny. Maybe you were required to read it for class. When that happens you usually hate the book.

The Jungle was absolutely the most depressing book I ever read. Whats even worse is that most of it is true. Upton Sinclair was a journalist & the book came about after he did some research into the meat packing industry. Also, as far as I know Upton actually worked in those packing houses for a time. Its hard to believe that people actually worked & lived in those conditions.

Good job on reading some of those books. They should give you a nice view on govt, politics, labor, business, and philosophy. They will help you too when entering college. You'll be ahead of everyone else. We all know the public education system in the US is krap.

The only books on that list I read in high school were Brave New World & Fahrenheit 451.

You should read The Art of War by Sun Tzu next. Its fairly short and is in the public domain.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2006 10:41 pm**

Nice review of the history KAL. I wasn't aware the battle went back that many years. I'm still not clear on the current status of Ireland tho. Is Ireland independant from the UK ? Or maybe only part of Ireland is independant ?

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2006 11:14 pm**

I think we are still in the realms of friendly debate

camthepyro wrote:True, there will always be more terrorists, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do anything about them. That's like saying "they'll always be more weeds in the lawn, so let's not do anything about the ones that are already there."

Actually I agree that we should all stand up to them. However there are different ways of standing up or to use your simile
You don't need to burn the whole lawn to destroy the weeds.

In the early part of the last centuary India was ruled brutually by the English (hmm a theme today!). Anyway the desire for home rule resulted in the Indian Mutany, an armed uprising which was eventually crushed. although to be honest it was a close run thing.

Years later an Indian called Mohandas Karamchand Gahndi appeared. Gahndi believed that violence begets violence and advocted non-violent protest in the sure knowledge that if he was killed there would be another to take his place. It took years but through the use of non-violence Ghandi forced the British to give India independance.

Martin Luther King became an advocate of non-violent protest and in doing so became the figure that the American Civil Rights movement could stand behind.

"First they ignore you,
then they ridicule you,
then they fight you,
then you win"

Violence has a glamour, combat and instant justice has a vicarious thrill that I am not sure that I will ever be able to throw off. I don't know if I will ever have the strength it takes to be non-violent in all situations but over the long run standing together and giving the message that this is unacceptable is the only way to resolve conflicts.

Posted: **Thu May 11, 2006 11:32 pm**

MrGompers wrote:Nice review of the history KAL. I wasn't aware the battle went back that many years. I'm still not clear on the current status of Ireland tho. Is Ireland independant from the UK ? Or maybe only part of Ireland is independant ?

Thank you, I had good history teachers.

Current status?

Eire (Southern Ireland) has been independant since before the Second World War

Ulster (The Six Counties of Northen Ireland) is still part of the Union.

We have had a cease fire and a peace agreement for the better part of a decade or so. Political violence has become rare. The IRA has given up many weapons stockpiles, which is something they havent done before, but we will never know if they have surrendered all of them.

The Security Forces have been seriously downscaled, joining the Army is no longer a guarantee to serve in Northen Ireland

An IRA splinter group were captured recently with a homemade bomb, reading between the lines Security Forces were tipped off to it by the Provisional IRA.

I'm not too sure if it has happened or not yet but Ulster is to have its own parliment as part of the United Kingdom. No one got what they wanted, but everyone seems to have gotten what they needed.

So all in, I'm optimistic that there will be an end to the Irish troubles. In the end the general populations of all three sides had no wish to continue fighting and the extremists either bowed to the pressure or as some rumours have it, were taken out of the picture by their own people.

Posted: **Fri May 12, 2006 1:13 am**

I heard about the all phones thing. I'd like to see their warrant for mine. Since i would say it violates a. wiretapping laws. b. illegal search and seizure laws. and c. probable cause laws. Thanks people i voted for!

but...then again its seriously turning into 1984 these days.

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