Noob question about braking...

Message

#11 Unread post by **bok** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:41 am

it's really a difference in how you and i were taught i imagine. if i learned it your way, i would probably think it was grand, but i can't see the benefit of not getting into first gear as part of the stopping process.

in my experience, when teaching students i find at least two or three times each night i have to help them shift to first from third at a full stop and those gears don't want to move without rocking the bike a bit or as you say getting them to the bite point. but there isn't time to do this in a panic situation, which is why we try to get them into first at every stop.

this may be offset by the fact that they are inexperienced riders and the bikes are "well loved", but i think it's better to teach them to be in first and ready to go at every stop emergency or not.

i can see the point though of focusing on braking since you will be giving 100% attention to the stop and might brake a few feet quicker, but if you train yourself to do the braking and then tap down at the last 5 feet or so of the stop you can get from the high gear to first before you finish your stop and the braking inputs should still be the same.

Nibblet99 · Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:50 am

Aye, I guess you're right, stick to what you're taught, it'll save confusion...

I think (note this is an assumption, not fact) one of the main reasons we're taught to change gears after completely stopping, rather than right at the end, is to reduce the amount of tasks the brain is trying to process. By separating it out, the job becomes a lot more simplistic, and I would expect most people to find it (a little) easier to cope with.

Its nice to see a variety of styles for simple maneuvers like this. Each have their merits, and having taken a moment to reflect on it, I believe you should stick to whichever way you're taught. The reason being if theres something wrong with your execution, your teacher would have told you... When trying something new without someone watching, you lose that.

jonnythan · Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:00 am

Nibblet99 wrote:Aye, I guess you're right, stick to what you're taught, it'll save confusion...

I think (note this is an assumption, not fact) one of the main reasons we're taught to change gears after completely stopping, rather than right at the end, is to reduce the amount of tasks the brain is trying to process. By separating it out, the job becomes a lot more simplistic, and I would expect most people to find it (a little) easier to cope with.

I deal with this kind of stupid thinking in scuba diving all the time. Skills are taught to the lowest common denominator. We learn stupid ways of doing things because the agencies think we're not intelligent enough to learn to do them the right way. (For you divers out there, I'm talking about things like using a drysuit for buoyancy.)

In any case, I'd rather learn and practice the *optimum* method and then train on it and learn it well enough that when an emergency comes, it's totally automatic from muscle memory. In another diving parallel, this is why I practice emergency procedures on virtually every dive (also something that is not taught). When the time comes that there's an actual emergency, the response will be completely automatic and require no thought process at all, which is equally desirable in diving and biking.

I'm perfectly capable of doing a maximum braking stop *and* downshifting simultaneously, so I'm happy that I was taught that way and I will continue to practice that way

Andrew · #14 Unread post by **Andrew** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:03 am

I agree with Jonnythan. I understand why they might teach a method with less steps, but I think it's better to learn correct methods from the begging so you don't have to break bad habits.

Then again, I'm sure many people wouldn't consider that the correct method.

#15 Unread post by **bok** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 3:11 am

hey, i just noticed i never gave the original poster the standard "This is something they should have taught you in your BRC"...which begs the question, did the OP take any formal training? if not, please get some training, as learning from a book or a friend is not as effective as learning from trained professionals.

sharpmagna · Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:23 am

Nibblet99 - I read an article about braking quickly and studies show that people were able to stop faster if they didn't downshift but pulled in the clutch. I guess you're brain doesn't have to worry about downshifting so it has more time to modulate the brakes better. In the US they teach you to downshift into first and when I have the time I do. Just this past weekend I had to do a very quick stop and I didn't downshift. I was more worried about stopping so I concentrated on my brakes more. It worked for me in that situation and I'll do it again.

A drawback is if someone following you is unable to stop, you won't be in the right gear to maneuver.

jonnythan · Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:27 am

sharpmagna wrote:Nibblet99 - I read an article about braking quickly and studies show that people were able to stop faster if they didn't downshift but pulled in the clutch. I guess you're brain doesn't have to worry about downshifting so it has more time to modulate the brakes better. In the US they teach you to downshift into first and when I have the time I do. Just this past weekend I had to do a very quick stop and I didn't downshift. I was more worried about stopping so I concentrated on my brakes more. It worked for me in that situation and I'll do it again.

A drawback is if someone following you is unable to stop, you won't be in the right gear to maneuver.

Out of curiosity, did the study differentiate between those who were trained on and regularly practice maximum braking while downshifting?

My gut would tell me that they took a big group of motorcyclists and had them do a maximum brake while downshifting and another maximum brake while not downshifting. The problem with this is that people who were trained on and regularly practice braking *while* downshifting would probably show no difference if they started braking without downshifting.

Tue Jul 25, 2006 4:55 am

sharpmagna wrote: A drawback is if someone following you is unable to stop, you won't be in the right gear to maneuver.

and that is enough reason for me to gradualy down shift as I slow down. Plus what happens if midway while stopping you get a green light? You're in the wrong gear to get going again. It took me a little bit to get used to it, but now downshifting as I slow down isn't really an issue anymore. This is how I was taught to do it at the MSF.

#19 Unread post by **bok** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:08 am

we all need to differentiate between emergency braking and just plain old stopping as well. in regular stops you are trained to shift gears to one more appropriate for the speed/rpms. this is the same thing that happens in a panic stop except you do it more quickly. If muscle memory means anything, it would seem to indicate that panic stopping while downshifting would be as ingrained as regular stopping while downshifting.

an interesting debate nonetheless.

GrandGT · #20 Unread post by **GrandGT** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 5:19 am

i never found downshifting while braking to be any more difficult, i dont even count gears, i just down till it wont shift nemore.

i find the being able to take off quickly and not sitting at lights in neutral is pretty damn important too. somewhere on this forum theres a link to a video of a guy getting railed from behind by a truck, i dunno if he could have gotten out of the way but why not put yourself in the best position