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How would this thread go if another brand was inserted everywhere "Harley" is mentioned? What if it said that Hondas have no power, or Yamahas leak oil, and Suzukis self machine their heads? How would we all respond?
Personally, it's not a big deal to me, and if my Yamaha did leak oil, It would only deserve a shrug. Some things just are the way they are, and it makes no sense to demand anything whatsoever from anybody mentioning a perceived shortcoming of your bike.
Harleys have reputations built to a great degree by the printed word, in letters to magazine technical editors over many decades. Most of us read these tech articles, and perceptions are based on them. That's all.
So far as I'm concerned, other brands problems have not been held up for viewing as often as Harley, so don't get the same kind of press-fed opinion.

Is "envy" the only reason anybody puts down Harley? Seems absurd to me. Or is it a reason conjured up and promoted by Harley owners? Who knows?

I doubt anyone here actually hates Harleys, but ownership may not be the only way to have at least some understanding of their foibles. For example, if your brother is married to a really mean, vicious woman, you don't have to live with her to know it.

Gummiente wrote: If you read some of my other posts here - so far there's over a hundred of them - I really don't think I've come across as hostile in any of those. Give me a chance, I'm not all that bad.

Agreed. And if you stick around a while you will notice the HD thing flare up every now and again when some new players come to the board. Outback Al (centraloz) has done a remarkable job speaking for the Harley voice and is one of the key blocks in the foundation of this place. It's great to discuss the merits and low points of all brands as it makes the place interesting, but the majority in here really have nothing against leaky, vibration prone bikes. Some of us can't help but take our friendly jabs however.....

Nice post, Gummiente. Good to know how solid the HD line has become. I was one of those who still believed they trailed parts like breadcrumbs and needed you to keep a lathe in your tool pouch just in case. But of course I'm gonna inveigle. Because I'm nothing if not an inveigler. Still, I'm going to look seriously at HDs along with the others now.

Vibration - Harleys vibrate.

And because the Honda VLX is an almost nut-for-nut copy of an HD cruiser, so does the VLX. I don't see headlights in my mirrors, I see little rounded triangular brushstrokes. Which is kinda cool. It's like looking at a Van Gogh or a Munch every time I check six.

Oil Leaks - ... Can we put this puppy to rest now?

You think it'll ever rest?

Actually, HD could put it to rest by doing a PR campaign that extends beyond the riding community to the general public, so that people who may become riders in the future will have the new data instead of the old data.

A lot of people like to justify their purchase of a traditionally styled Metric cruiser by saying they got a bike just as good as a Harley for half the price. My answer to that is why do you feel the need to compare it to a Harley in the first place?

Maybe because the popular prejudice is that Harleys must somehow be better in some insurmountable way. They aren't. The valuable differences between marques is minimal. You can get a very similar bike for a very much lower price just by nutting up and smirking at the insults from Harley riders. Harley has is the history (working both for and against it) and the American labor (to which someone says "Rune"...) Neither of which adds up to a better bike, just marketable activation of a prejudiced attitude.

(N.B.: I'm a patriot about the constitution, not corporations; we built Japan from the firebombs up, and that's why they kicked our bottoms in the '70s and '80s. If they're still making the grade and selling it for less, banzai to them.)

To me that's like buying a Hyundai Sonata solely because you couldn't afford the Mercedes you really wanted

I'm going to look some more, but to me, the Honda cruisers seem less tarted-up than the Harleys. Slightly cleaner in line and somewhat less gadgety. But there are so many models and options in the HD catalog that I might find one I really like the look of for when I'm done with my training wheels. Fit will almost certainly be the main factor. But then I'll compare prices and get a big VLX that'll be that...

(is it just me or does anyone else think the Korean cars are lookalikes of other brands? I still have trouble telling a Kia Magenta from a Lexus at a distance.)

It's the Nissan Altima that can't be distinguished from the Lexus GS300/400 until you realize the back of the rear-side window opening on the Altima is the wrong shape. I drive a GS400, and I get fooled by that all the time.

http://www.ambassadorautosales.com/imag ... 20SIDE.jpg
http://www.mikeandbev.org/altima/altima2h.jpg

I had the idea to knock off the Porsche 911 about 20 years ago, and don't know why nobody's even come close to trying. I couldn't be the only one who'd see they'd be popular enough to be built forever...

Harley is a firm believer in the concept of demo rides because that's how they get a lot of their new customers. Some dealers have organised Demo Ride days, some will let you take any bike out by yourself

They'll just hand a V-Rod to any squid with an M on his ticket?

Risky.

Inviting.

When do they do that?

oldnslo wrote:Is "envy" the only reason anybody puts down Harley?

No, but you'd be surprised at how often that is the underlying reason. I have five personal experiences to draw on from my Sportster days. I'll relate one of them for you... one of our Commisionaires (a retired military person working as a security guard) belonged to the military bike club I was a member of. At the time, I was one of only three in the club roster of forty members that had a Harley and he would take every opportunity to harass us about our choice in bikes. And I don't mean friendly jabs, either - he would get downright nasty. It got to the point where the other two wouldn't go on any rides that this character showed up to (he was on a Gold Wing at the time); me being the sensitive soul that I am just kept telling him to f*ck off whenever he'd get in my face. This went on for over a year and then one day doesn't he show up on a brand new Electra-Glide Classic. All of a sudden he was the nicest guy you'd ever met on a Harley, but he had this inexplicable memory loss about his former attitude towards the brand.

The other four stories are very similar and I have heard many of the same from other Harley owners. To be fair, I have also seen people who cut their teeth on Japanese bikes then buy a Harley and suddenly become the biggest buttheads on two wheels by loudly proclaiming that japanese bikes are inferior.

blair wrote:They'll just hand a V-Rod to any squid with an M on his ticket?

Well, yes, actually. At least they do on the demo rides here in Canada.

And thanks for your response - you've made some good points. Oh, and my apologies to your Lexus, I must confess that I'm not as up to date on cars as I am on bikes. But that Kia Magenta reminds me of SOMETHING, I just can't place it right now.

Man that is one beautiful post. As an 04 Sportster rider, I can relate. Now maybe we will get lucky and some of the bone heads that look for any chance to bash something, whether they know anything about what they are bashing or not, will finally understand. I'm not getting my hopes up though.

Gummiente wrote: To be fair, I have also seen people who cut their teeth on Japanese bikes then buy a Harley and suddenly become the biggest buttheads on two wheels by loudly proclaiming that japanese bikes are inferior.

Amen. And they are the biggest idiots of all. Nowdays, I would be that the overwelming majority of Harley owners started on Japaneese bikes, yet many developed the biggest attitudes when they bought 'merican (even here in Canada, go figure.... ). I've seen this happen so many times, even by people that I helped get started in biking. And if there is one thingthat causes the majority of the Harley wise-cracks, it is the attitude of "these owners". You rarely ever see "these owners", out in the middle of nowhere however as that is where the real Harley riders can be found (without attitude, and riding).

Cheers to Gummie for this post.

Not so much that it seemed to be the most gentle sort of thing, but at least that it was there. I understand that there's a certain amount of joking, and poking, and all of that, but I also think it's important (at least once in a while) for someone to stand up and say 'Hey, let's all remember...' - Or, for that matter, to say 'Hey, maybe you never knew in the first place'.

This post might've been a little better had you (Gummie ) included some of the actual/factual problems where those Harley jokes come from, and localized them to specific years or models. You did mention that this was in regards to modern bikes, but I'd like to know about where all that got started anyways. But I digress, I should be looking it up on my own.

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blair wrote:And because the Honda VLX is an almost nut-for-nut copy of an HD cruiser, so does the VLX. I don't see headlights in my mirrors, I see little rounded triangular brushstrokes. Which is kinda cool. It's like looking at a Van Gogh or a Munch every time I check six.

Ten years ago, at the factory, a bunch of engineers sat around a table thinking, 'Hey, let's cash in on this idea'.

A month ago, at a farmhouse, I looked at a bike I could afford and thought, 'Man, I really love riding'.

I'm not rich enough to have everything I love; Just poor enough to love everything I have.

blair wrote:

Vibration - Harleys vibrate.

And because the Honda VLX is an almost nut-for-nut copy of an HD cruiser, so does the VLX.

There is a big difference with the VLX. Honda uses offset crankpins to minimize engine vibration making a narrow V-twin feel more like a 90deg. V-twin. It shouldn't vibrate nearly as much as an HD.....

High_Side wrote:

blair wrote:

Vibration - Harleys vibrate.

And because the Honda VLX is an almost nut-for-nut copy of an HD cruiser, so does the VLX.

There is a big difference with the VLX. Honda uses offset crankpins to minimize engine vibration making a narrow V-twin feel more like a 90deg. V-twin. It shouldn't vibrate nearly as much as an HD.....

I'll vouch for that. My VLX doesn't start to vibrate until I hit about 80 MPH, at which point the engine is really being worked.