Total Motorcycle Community Forums

hordak wrote:I understand what your getting at and agree that you shouldn't jump on a liter bike when first starting out but taking an accedent clearly caused by rider error and blaming it on the size of bike is a bit of a stretch. You could use the same type of rational to blame the style of bike not just the displacement.
We could jump to a conclusion like
"sport bike riders like to go to fast and had he been on a cruiser he would have been riding patently while taking in the scenery and not tried to pass" or some other b.s.

The only facts from the story are that he was new, on a litter bike, and passed on a curve.

The lesson to take from this story is don't pass on blind curves. Doesn't matter how long you have been riding, or how small your bike is a head on crash will be treat you the same.

Had he been on a Ninja 250 - or, rather, had he been capable of restraining himself and making the smart, responsible decisions that would have led him to get a Ninja 250 - he would still be alive today.

IMO, the poor decision that led directly to his death (passing on a curve) and the poor decision that indirectly led it (purchasing a 1000cc supersport bike with zero prior experience) both have the same cause - youthful bravado and arrogance (which is no doubt quite common among young professional athletes).

I also have little doubt that the situation was exacerbated, if not directly caused, by the power of the bike itself. Being in control of an incredibly fast and powerful machine, whether motorcycle or automobile, makes someone want to flex some of that muscle. Put a 21 year old professional hockey player behind the wheel of a Ferrari and they're much more likely to be going 120 mph on the interstate than if you put the same person behind the wheel of a Hyundai. Put said player on a Ninja 250 and he's much less likely to be cranking the throttle to pass cars around blind curves.

jonnythan wrote:

hordak wrote:I understand what your getting at and agree that you shouldn't jump on a liter bike when first starting out but taking an accedent clearly caused by rider error and blaming it on the size of bike is a bit of a stretch. You could use the same type of rational to blame the style of bike not just the displacement.
We could jump to a conclusion like
"sport bike riders like to go to fast and had he been on a cruiser he would have been riding patently while taking in the scenery and not tried to pass" or some other b.s.

The only facts from the story are that he was new, on a litter bike, and passed on a curve.

The lesson to take from this story is don't pass on blind curves. Doesn't matter how long you have been riding, or how small your bike is a head on crash will be treat you the same.

Had he been on a Ninja 250 - or, rather, had he been capable of restraining himself and making the smart, responsible decisions that would have led him to get a Ninja 250 - he would still be alive today.

IMO, the poor decision that led directly to his death (passing on a curve) and the poor decision that indirectly led it (purchasing a 1000cc supersport bike with zero prior experience) both have the same cause - youthful bravado and arrogance (which is no doubt quite common among young professional athletes).

I also have little doubt that the situation was exacerbated, if not directly caused, by the power of the bike itself. Being in control of an incredibly fast and powerful machine, whether motorcycle or automobile, makes someone want to flex some of that muscle. Put a 21 year old professional hockey player behind the wheel of a Ferrari and they're much more likely to be going 120 mph on the interstate than if you put the same person behind the wheel of a Hyundai. Put said player on a Ninja 250 and he's much less likely to be cranking the throttle to pass cars around blind curves.

Owning a 250 doesn't automatically make you any safer or smarter.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7x6LWP1FKE&feature=related

Squids will be squids

hordak wrote:Owning a 250 doesn't automatically make you any safer or smarter.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7x6LWP1FKE&feature=related

Squids will be squids

Never said that it did.

jonnythan wrote:

hordak wrote:Owning a 250 doesn't automatically make you any safer or smarter.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7x6LWP1FKE&feature=related

Squids will be squids

Never said that it did.

I think you hit the nail on the head with the youthful bravado and arrogance remark.

But i disagree that putting the player on a Ninja 250 and he's much less likely to be cranking the throttle to pass cars around blind curves as the video shows .

adrielm wrote:And despite what the article said, you'd need hurricane-force winds to push you and your 400lb bike into the oncoming lane.

And you've never ridden between Lethbridge and the Montanna border on a day with a brisk breeze blowing. My 700 lb bike was tossed around like a dust rag last summer, (and don't say it's due to my short 30+ years of experience...) I rode the whole way between Shelby Montanna and Lethbridge Alberta, somewhere a lot closer to 45 - 50 degree angle than straight up and down...

jonnythan wrote: Had he been on a Ninja 250 - or, rather, had he been capable of restraining himself and making the smart, responsible decisions that would have led him to get a Ninja 250 - he would still be alive today.

IMO, the poor decision that led directly to his death (passing on a curve) and the poor decision that indirectly led it (purchasing a 1000cc supersport bike with zero prior experience) both have the same cause - youthful bravado and arrogance (which is no doubt quite common among young professional athletes).

I also have little doubt that the situation was exacerbated, if not directly caused, by the power of the bike itself. Being in control of an incredibly fast and powerful machine, whether motorcycle or automobile, makes someone want to flex some of that muscle. Put a 21 year old professional hockey player behind the wheel of a Ferrari and they're much more likely to be going 120 mph on the interstate than if you put the same person behind the wheel of a Hyundai. Put said player on a Ninja 250 and he's much less likely to be cranking the throttle to pass cars around blind curves.

I don't disagree with anything you write here, j, but I would shift the empahsis away from the rider a little. Situations like this have just as much to do with the way that a litre bike and a 250 perform, as they do with the rider's age and hormone levels.

My hormones have long since quietened down (well, '-ish') yet every day I still face the same practical realities I did in my twenties. On my litre bike I will make overtakes which I wouldn't dream of trying on my 125 or on a 250, simply because on the 1000, I know I have the torque/acceleration to make them safely; on a 125/250 I know I don't.

The way the bike performs affects the judgements I make. There's no doubt that I will take more calculated risks on a litre bike than on a 250 just because I know that on the litre bike I have more power, more torque to get out of harm's way if I need it. That is not a head-centred judgement I'm making; it's down to 'feel'. But 'feel' is real, it's not a subjective thing like style or degrees of arrogance or whatever.

The crunch comes if you don't have the experience to calculate risks properly or the judgement to back it up - that's when the difference between a big bike and a smaller one is going to start making the difference betrween life and death.

And why novice riders should stick to smaller bikes.

Of course, you can make a total plonker of yourself on a 250 just as much as you can on a 1000 - haven't we all - but that's a competely different story.

hordak wrote:

jonnythan wrote:

hordak wrote:I understand what your getting at and agree that you shouldn't jump on a liter bike when first starting out but taking an accedent clearly caused by rider error and blaming it on the size of bike is a bit of a stretch. You could use the same type of rational to blame the style of bike not just the displacement.
We could jump to a conclusion like
"sport bike riders like to go to fast and had he been on a cruiser he would have been riding patently while taking in the scenery and not tried to pass" or some other b.s.

The only facts from the story are that he was new, on a litter bike, and passed on a curve.

The lesson to take from this story is don't pass on blind curves. Doesn't matter how long you have been riding, or how small your bike is a head on crash will be treat you the same.

Had he been on a Ninja 250 - or, rather, had he been capable of restraining himself and making the smart, responsible decisions that would have led him to get a Ninja 250 - he would still be alive today.

IMO, the poor decision that led directly to his death (passing on a curve) and the poor decision that indirectly led it (purchasing a 1000cc supersport bike with zero prior experience) both have the same cause - youthful bravado and arrogance (which is no doubt quite common among young professional athletes).

I also have little doubt that the situation was exacerbated, if not directly caused, by the power of the bike itself. Being in control of an incredibly fast and powerful machine, whether motorcycle or automobile, makes someone want to flex some of that muscle. Put a 21 year old professional hockey player behind the wheel of a Ferrari and they're much more likely to be going 120 mph on the interstate than if you put the same person behind the wheel of a Hyundai. Put said player on a Ninja 250 and he's much less likely to be cranking the throttle to pass cars around blind curves.

Owning a 250 doesn't automatically make you any safer or smarter.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7x6LWP1FKE&feature=related

Squids will be squids

This isn't a really good example.

1) This bike has already seen some accidents - you can see it because they have completely removed the front fairing. The reason is consistent thrill seeking.
2) This is intentional 'showboating' - which I doubt that Luc was engaged in - Luc was probably just experimenting with his new bike seeing what he was capable of... or in this case not capable of...

The kind of people doing the wheelies at speed on Ninja 250's - are the .001 percenters that need to pursue thrills and show-off. Let's hope they don't hurt anybody else.

RhadamYgg

People are going to do crazy things regardless what bike they're on. People who take chances in cars are also likely to take chances on bikes. I don't believe it's so much a bike thing as a personality thing. Some people are way more likely to enjoy taking unnecessary risks than others.

Re: just as dead on a 250 vs 600


It can be suggested that same motivation that lead him to buy a bike over his head is the same motivation that got him killed--> inexperience, ignorance, invincibility, stupidity...

Or the same motivation that got him killed is the same motivation that lead him to buy a bike that was out of his league.

The dude just made bad decisions.

In the end, same story headline: noob rider killed on big sportbike

Shorts wrote:Re: just as dead on a 250 vs 600


It can be suggested that same motivation that lead him to buy a bike over his head is the same motivation that got him killed--> inexperience, ignorance, invincibility, stupidity...

Or the same motivation that got him killed is the same motivation that lead him to buy a bike that was out of his league.

The dude just made bad decisions.

In the end, same story headline: noob rider killed on big sportbike

Which is basically what I was getting at. All of us have pulled bone-headed moves when we were learning. Luckily most of us survived those experiences, probably in no small part because we were on smaller machines at first.

The perfect analogy is the pilot one. There is no way you can jump into the cockpit of an CF-18 and expect to fly it safely just days after you solo'ed in a Cessna. Same holds true with bikes, especially bike that are street versions of racing bikes.

Every year we read about some kid who wrapped himself around a telephone pole or slammed into a rock face while riding a sport bike, and 9 times out of 10, the ink on his riding permit was still wet.

If just one newbie kid who is trusting after a litre bike or a 600RR reads this and changes his or her mind and opts for a smaller, more manageable machine for their first ride, then Luc's death will not be in vain.