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another difference between the brakes is which end of the bike they are on...kind of self explanatory though.

viper15 wrote:Haha.. yeah I was one of those students who asked a bit too often. I did get my questions answered during the course, but questions that I didn't think about would emerge after the course as well.

What does it mean when your wheels "lock"? So you say that I should place more emphasis on the front brakes when stopping at a high speed? That's actually contrary to what the MSF course taught..

Okay. Do you still have your student handbook? Dig it out and READ IT!! The questions you're asking are all covered in that book.

It seems that you "misremembered" the coaching you recieved when you had problems. Rather than try to remember all your quesitons, just read your handbook. OR get a copy of Proficient Motorcycling and go thru that. It is written in a format that lends itself to 'little' bites of information.

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viper15 wrote: wrote:
So you say that I should place more emphasis on the front brakes when stopping at a high speed? That's actually contrary to what the MSF course taught..

No. You have mis-remembered what the Basic Riders Course taught. The front brake provides 70% of your stopping power. What a coach will tell you is to squeeze the hand lever/press the brake lever progressively harder as the bike slows. MAXIMUM BRAKING is applying the maximum amount of braking force just short of sliding. If your tires are sliding, they aren't slowing the bike down.

There is a LOT of information thrown at students in a very short time. Go back and read your handbook before asking more questions.

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Brackstone wrote: I wouldn't say put "more" emphasis on your front brake. Your front brake is just much much stronger than your rear brake. So if you need stopping power you need your front brake too.

Actually the front brake isn't stronger. But, because the physics of the bike and momentum, as the bike slows, weight is transferred to the front wheel. This gives more traction to the front wheel and more braking force. . . provided the rider is continuing to progressively squeeze harder on that front brake lever while stopping.

Brackstone wrote:If you "Lock" the wheels that means the wheel stops moving. The problem with this is that the bike won't and you go over the handle bars.

No. You don't go over the handlebars, the tire slides!! Brackstone, how 'bout you leave the advising in this thread to an instructor? Thanks.

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Here is the difference between locking up the rear brakes and the front brakes.

If you lock up the rear brakes: The bike will start fishtailing or sliding back and forth. . . do not let go of the rear brake as you can highside when the rear suddenly and abruptly regains traction. . . ride out the slide by keeping the rear brake locked and your cool. You [should] to practice this to prepare for the real world scenario.

If you lock up the front brakes: You lose all control and crash is imminent....well not really. Unlike locking up the rear, you have a split second window of opportunity to regain traction by momentarily releasing the front brake and the bike will regain traction. This requires instantaneous reaction and tremendous finesse. Practice once again is critical. Practicing on a dirtbike on a semi-hard surface with loose dirt is the best way to start.

So althought the results of a locked front brake can be far more detrimental than the result of a locked rear brake, with skill, one can "correct" for locked front brakes where a locked rear brake really cannot be "corrected".

I think I have a pretty good "mastery" of the brakes. I purposely lock the rear all the time to turn in the dirt, and I can trail brake perfectly smoothly while leaning the bike. That being said, I don't have 100% confidence that I would not lock up the rear brakes in a panic stop. I feel that in a panic situation, it may be best just to stomp on the front unless you have truly mastered the feel of your rear.

Question for Lion Lady. I see that you have a R1150R Rockster. Do you have ABS? If not, do the rear lock up easily? My R1150R's rear locks up so easily it is ridiculous.

Lion_Lady wrote:

Brackstone wrote: I wouldn't say put "more" emphasis on your front brake. Your front brake is just much much stronger than your rear brake. So if you need stopping power you need your front brake too.

Actually the front brake isn't stronger. But, because the physics of the bike and momentum, as the bike slows, weight is transferred to the front wheel. This gives more traction to the front wheel and more braking force. . . provided the rider is continuing to progressively squeeze harder on that front brake lever while stopping.

Brackstone wrote:If you "Lock" the wheels that means the wheel stops moving. The problem with this is that the bike won't and you go over the handle bars.

No. You don't go over the handlebars, the tire slides!! Brackstone, how 'bout you leave the advising in this thread to an instructor? Thanks.

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You said before 70% of your stopping power comes from your front brake but it's not much stronger because of etc. etc. etc.

You don't go over the handlebars? Ok if I'm doing 50MPH and I grab the front brake hard your saying I'll just slide down the street? I can still low side or high side or do a bunch of things.

I look at the sky and I see that it's blue, then you proceed to tell me the sky isn't blue it's just light reflecting off the ocean. Now you're just splitting hairs.

If this person is having problems remembering everything it's because things just need to be kept more simple. All you're doing is over-complicating things AGAIN which aren't helping.

Front brake 70% Stopping Power = Front Brake is much much stronger
Locking front brake = Going over handle bars

Standardized teaching works for pretty much everybody but SOMETIMES one method of teaching doesn't work for everyone.

If I said Front Brake? Nah You don't EVER have to use that! It's for suckers just use the rear it's easier! Then maybe I'd deserve some of your attitude but I didn't.

Get off your high horse.

HYPERR wrote: Question for Lion Lady. I see that you have a R1150R Rockster. Do you have ABS? If not, do the rear lock up easily? My R1150R's rear locks up so easily it is ridiculous.

Yes, I've got ABS. Neither wheel locks up under hard braking. BUT if I'm braking on a washboard type surface, the brakes will ease off as I ride the bumps. Kind of disconcerting, but I've learned to expect it under that circumstance. The road from my neighborhood to the nearest main street has a downhill slope to a stop sign. Truck traffic has pushed the asphalt into ripples in hot weather, and my ABS will hiccup there.

If your rear locks up so easily, then you should probably practice your quick stops, focusing on harder front brake application and less rear. Since leg muscles are stronger than arm, it is a common error. Another option might be to adjust the position of your rear brake lever.

When teaching the BRC, the standard coaching response to any learning rider is, "If the rear skids, then you need to do what differently for maximum braking?"

The correct response is, "More front, less rear." Using a progressively firmer squeeeeze as the weight transfers forward.

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Brackstone wrote: You don't go over the handlebars? Ok if I'm doing 50MPH and I grab the front brake hard your saying I'll just slide down the street? I can still low side or high side or do a bunch of things.

Getting on the brakes for a really hard stop is a progressive squeeze instead of a grab-stop instant action-reaction.

What happens is, apply both brakes. You'll want to drag the rear on the edge of traction and at the same time, you apply the front brake and then squeeze like hell. It'll be similar to when you give someone a strong handshake and you slowly keep squeezing so you can get a reaction from them.

The bike will dive forward, hard. You will dive forward, hard. Your core strength is important here. You will squeeze the tank with your knees and you will have to hold up your torso. And just keep squeezing the brakes until you get stopped. It does take some regulation and you have to be able to feel your bike, so being familiar with it is important.

If you've take some time to practice this, and practice well, you will be tired. Your hands will be tired from squeezing the front brake. Your body will be tired from supporting your body against inertia.

Give it a go, I think it may help answer some of the questions you might have.

Can a bike do a stoppie? sure.

Brackstone wrote:

Lion_Lady wrote:

Brackstone wrote: I wouldn't say put "more" emphasis on your front brake. Your front brake is just much much stronger than your rear brake. So if you need stopping power you need your front brake too.

Actually the front brake isn't stronger. But, because the physics of the bike and momentum, as the bike slows, weight is transferred to the front wheel. This gives more traction to the front wheel and more braking force. . . provided the rider is continuing to progressively squeeze harder on that front brake lever while stopping.

Brackstone wrote:If you "Lock" the wheels that means the wheel stops moving. The problem with this is that the bike won't and you go over the handle bars.

No. You don't go over the handlebars, the tire slides!! Brackstone, how 'bout you leave the advising in this thread to an instructor? Thanks.

P

You said before 70% of your stopping power comes from your front brake but it's not much stronger because of etc. etc. etc.

You don't go over the handlebars? Ok if I'm doing 50MPH and I grab the front brake hard your saying I'll just slide down the street? I can still low side or high side or do a bunch of things.

I look at the sky and I see that it's blue, then you proceed to tell me the sky isn't blue it's just light reflecting off the ocean. Now you're just splitting hairs.

Okay. Let me explain so you can understand... the front brake MECHANISM isn't stronger. The greater "strength" comes in the APPLICATION of the front brake. By the rider. Guess I shouldn't have thrown in the physics reference.

Going over the handlebars isn't likely, even with maximum braking from 50mph. Unless the rider panics and GRABS the brake lever - because they had not practiced the technique. Yet another reason for any rider to practice quick stops at the beginning of the riding season and periodically thru the season.

Mentioning the possibility of going over the handlebars under hard braking has the unfortunate result of causing folks (particularly newer riders) to shy away from using the front brake to its optimum capacity when they need it most.

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Lion_Lady wrote:
If your rear locks up so easily, then you should probably practice your quick stops, focusing on harder front brake application and less rear. Since leg muscles are stronger than arm, it is a common error. Another option might be to adjust the position of your rear brake lever.

The rear of the R1150R locks up so easily it's ridiculous to the point of being basically useless. It is the bike not me. It is the only bike I have ever owned that I don't have 100% confidence doing panic stops using both the front and rear. On the R1150R, I routinely practice full quick stops just using the front; to get the feel for the brink of imminent lockup. On the flip side, I have had bikes that you couldn't lock up the rear if I stomped on it with all my might.

It is very important to know your bike's brake's idiosyncracies; especially for me as I own multiple bikes with totally different characteristics.