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Posted: Thu Jun 02, 2005 11:46 pm
by Nibblet99
Aquaduct wrote:
Nibblet99 wrote:On the other question....

Carbs are better at mixing the fuel with air, so you get a cleaner, more powerful burn, from the same amount of fuel (which improves power, and is also more Eco friendly)

Injection however is more reliable, unlike carburettors they are less susceptable to impurities in the fuel clogging them up, and you won't have to remove it from the bike to clean it when removing your bike from storage

so basically if you don't mind minor maintainence, pick carbs, otherwise pick injection
Hate to quibble, but that's simply not true. Fuel injection allows much more precise control of combustion giving more power, better fuel economy, and reduced emissions. The advantages of carbs are they are cheaper and don't require the additional electronic control architecture.
Hmm, I re-checked my facts and you're right, I was wrong. However There does seem to be a tendancy (online) for people to prefer carbs for lows speed control (around a parking lot) due to the immediate response of carbs.

Also one of the next generations of fuel injection is looking to inject into a premix chamber, to thoroughly mix the fuel/air together to produce a better cleaner burn, before it's loaded into the cylinder

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:06 am
by CentralOzzy
I like my Carbie Bike.... 8)

But I LOVE my EFI Bike better! :)

EFI....easy!

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:13 am
by Randy
I like easy things, thats why I married my wife. Good thing she doesn't read these forums!

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:59 am
by Sev
Randy wrote:I like easy things, thats why I married my wife. Good thing she doesn't read these forums!
You certainly like to live dangerously.

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 12:43 pm
by sv-wolf
Nibblet99 wrote: The advantages of carbs are they are cheaper and don't require the additional electronic control architecture.
You may be right that carbs are cheaper, but I would have thought the opposite was true. Carbs are mechanically complex bits of fine engineering. Microchips can be turned out for a pittance these days.

I was wondering why it took manufacturers so long to start using FI in bikes. Could it just be that unlike in a car, carbs were part of the architecture and the 'look' of the bike. Anyone know?

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:23 pm
by Aquaduct
sv-wolf wrote:You may be right that carbs are cheaper, but I would have thought the opposite was true. Carbs are mechanically complex bits of fine engineering. Microchips can be turned out for a pittance these days.

I was wondering why it took manufacturers so long to start using FI in bikes. Could it just be that unlike in a car, carbs were part of the architecture and the 'look' of the bike. Anyone know?
Well, first off, fuel injection involves a lot more than just a chip. The injector mechanism itself is far and away a more complex bit of mechanism than any carburetor. And then you have to run pressurized fuel which involves a pump. And then there's the electronic architecture that involves a bunch of sensors and actuators to determine the right amount of fuel and precisely deliver it consistently across the rpm range.

A carburetor is fairly simple conceptually. When the throttle plate opens, the additional air flow uses Bernoulli's principle to suck fuel into the airstream. The trick is getting the jet sizes and positions right so the mixture is reasonable through the operating range. The more load and speed on an engine, the more air is pulled and fuel compensates to match.

Fuel injection must calculate the proper amount of fuel for each combustion event based on engine speed and load, operating conditions, ambient conditions as well as target emission levels, etc, throughout the operating map. For a 4 cylinder sport bike at a relatively moderate 6000 rpm, that's 200 calculations per second, or 1 precisely metered fuel event every 5 milliseconds or thereabouts.

I design engines for heavy trucks, so I don't know motorcycles that well, but I can think of a couple reasons why bikes have been slow to adopt fuel injection. First, bikes run at higher rpms than cars meaning there needs to be substantially faster processor speeds and that translates to $$$. Second, fuel injection requires the incorporation of an entire electronic and fuel pumping architecture which takes space, something bikes are not blessed with oodles of. Third, fuel injection is a whole different way of doing engine development. It requires more substantial engine mapping and testing to be able to cover the engine operating range. And finally, bike's are already fuel efficient and I don't believe they are under as much pressure from emissions regulations as other vehicles, so the technical pressure to move into more expensive technology just hasn't been there (YET).

Eventually, I'm sure all bikes will be fuel injected. For now, it's moving into high end bikes, where the cost can be recouped. It's optional or not offered where price points are still sensitive enough.

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:41 pm
by CentralOzzy
Harley still offer a Carb option. I'll take EFI every time.

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 2:48 pm
by Aquaduct
CentralOzzy wrote:Harley still offer a Carb option. I'll take EFI every time.
Yeah, we've got a bunch of Harley riders in our shop and I had asked thier advice when considering a new bike, and they'd all said they would never get another bike without fuel injection.

My Triumph is great, but I know that if the time to move on to a new bike ever comes up, it will be fuel injected and probably shaft drive. Like an FJR1300. Friggin bullet proof and set it and forget it.

Posted: Fri Jun 03, 2005 6:38 pm
by CentralOzzy
Mate, Burn the Bucks & buy a Street-Rod....I am. :wink:













All right all right.....get what ya want....

Posted: Sat Jun 04, 2005 1:35 am
by Gummiente
CentralOzzy wrote:Harley still offer a Carb option. I'll take EFI every time.
After futzing about with the carb trying to nail the right setup after changing the intake/exhaust and being unhappy with the cold starting performance, I'm wishing I had sprung for the FI on my Geezer-Glide. :roll: