MSF or self-learn riding

[flynrider]

None of the riders with 20 or 30 or 40 years of experience can be certain of maneuvering their bikes in a panic situation as well as their cars unless they practice the maneuvers regularly. They know that.

That would depend on what these experienced riders have been doing in their riding decades. After almost 30 yrs. of regular riding, I find stopping or swerving my bike in an emergency situation just as natural as doing it in a cage. Since I ride to work most everyday in a city crowded with notoriously bad cage drivers, I get to practice abrupt stopping and swerving at least once a week (usually more).

Having been present at the scene of numerous motorcycle accidents over the years, one thing I've noticed is that ones involving inexperienced riders often contain a telltale marker. A long, dark skid mark indicating that the rider just clamped on the binders and locked the wheels in a panic. A pretty good sign that the rider was not up to speed on their emergency manuevers. Someone that is truly experienced would not be likely to make such a mistake.

BTW - in reference to experienced drivers being able to manuever their cars in an emergency situation, I haven't seen a great deal of competence in that area. Even drivers that have been around for decades will just stomp on the brakes as hard as they can when something crosses their path, thereby giving up directional control (assuming non-ABS). Years of experience in cage driving doesn't seem to mean much in an emergency situation. Since the results of bad technique are more catastrophic to the motorcyclist, I would think that someone that was able to have survived decades of riding had probably developed better emergency skills than a cage driver with similar time behind the wheel.

[beginner]

None of the riders with 20 or 30 or 40 years of experience can be certain of maneuvering their bikes in a panic situation as well as their cars unless they practice the maneuvers regularly. They know that.

That would depend on what these experienced riders have been doing in their riding decades. After almost 30 yrs. of regular riding, I find stopping or swerving my bike in an emergency situation just as natural as doing it in a cage. Since I ride to work most everyday in a city crowded with notoriously bad cage drivers, I get to practice abrupt stopping and swerving at least once a week (usually more).

Having been present at the scene of numerous motorcycle accidents over the years, one thing I've noticed is that ones involving inexperienced riders often contain a telltale marker. A long, dark skid mark indicating that the rider just clamped on the binders and locked the wheels in a panic. A pretty good sign that the rider was not up to speed on their emergency manuevers. Someone that is truly experienced would not be likely to make such a mistake.

BTW - in reference to experienced drivers being able to manuever their cars in an emergency situation, I haven't seen a great deal of competence in that area. Even drivers that have been around for decades will just stomp on the brakes as hard as they can when something crosses their path, thereby giving up directional control (assuming non-ABS). Years of experience in cage driving doesn't seem to mean much in an emergency situation. Since the results of bad technique are more catastrophic to the motorcyclist, I would think that someone that was able to have survived decades of riding had probably developed better emergency skills than a cage driver with similar time behind the wheel.

I decided I wanted a way to assess the contribution of current skills to my safety margin. Comparing emergency skills in driving and riding has been useful. Do you know of something better?

Even if I reach the confidence to say I'm certain I can maneuver the bike as well as the car in a panic, I would need at least dozens of repetitions per week to maintain that confidence.

A motor police officer has told me that before every shift he warms up in a parking lot for about 15 minutes, then he may drop into a parking lot several more times during the day for quick PLP sessions. My impression is that panic maneuvering skills are fragile. They get stale even as the day wears on. The policeman's practice habits seem to reflect that.

Before the police officer described his pattern I was going straight to the parking lot on the first ride of the day. A figure 8 usually takes 15 minutes before it is as smooth as the day before. Hard braking also seems to need daily repetitions to stay at my skill level.

[RhadamYgg]

What's hard to ignore is the number of single vehicle motorcycle crashes, 47%.

There is a certain component of the single-vehicle crashes that belongs in the rider skill department. However, about half of the single-vehicle motorcycle accidents are drunk drivers.

Interestingly enough, about half of the multi-vehicle accidents involving accidents are drunk riders.

It is close to 50% of motorcyclist accidents that involve drunk riders. Similar to the drunk rider we made fun of a while back that stopped at a light and put his feet up on the pegs... Without having any stands down - dropping his bike in front of a cop and getting busted as a drunk rider.

RhadamYgg

[beginner]

What's hard to ignore is the number of single vehicle motorcycle crashes, 47%.

There is a certain component of the single-vehicle crashes that belongs in the rider skill department. However, about half of the single-vehicle motorcycle accidents are drunk drivers.

Interestingly enough, about half of the multi-vehicle accidents involving accidents are drunk riders.

It is close to 50% of motorcyclist accidents that involve drunk riders. Similar to the drunk rider we made fun of a while back that stopped at a light and put his feet up on the pegs... Without having any stands down - dropping his bike in front of a cop and getting busted as a drunk rider.

RhadamYgg

The numbers you mention don't seem to reflect what's going on in Michigan. From the Michigan study cited earlier.
http://www.motorcyclesafetyinfo.com/mic ... chigan.pdf
"• Alcohol and/or drug use are indicated in 38.2% of motorcycle operator FATALITIES.
• Alcohol and/or drug use are indicated in 39.8% of ALL driver FATALITIES.
• Alcohol and/or drug use are indicated with 7.5% of motorcycle operators involved in a motorcycle CRASH.
• Alcohol and/or drug use are indicated with 2.4% of drivers involved in ALL crashes."

Riding DUI increases the chance of dying in a crash but it's not an factor in the overwhelming majority of crashes.

[ofblong]

When you get a review thats worth reading...

I offered evidence. Each person has to decide what the evidence proves to them. Here is an excellent review of Michigan motorcycle crashes. http://www.motorcyclesafetyinfo.com/mic ... chigan.pdf What's hard to ignore is the number of single vehicle motorcycle crashes, 47%. I see a lot of crashes where lack of skills, that can only be devloped doing drills and exercises, seems to be a factor. There are a surprising number of crashes where the rider had time to take an action that was within the performance capabilities of his motorcycle and did nothing. Freezing at the controls is a symptom of lack of skill.

The fact that motorcycling is riskier doesn't break the reasoning that training on any topic make a person more proficient at that topic. The fact that cars offer more protection than bikes is irrelevant.

Training is useful, practice is essential. The lower risk of driving a car is relevent to the precautions needed to have a comfortable safety margin.

Right now, without a doubt, I can drive my car better than I can ride my bike.

The same is true for me, even after 150 hours of practicing emergency maneuvers. Just riding around will never bring those skills up to par with what I can do in a car so I'll keep practicing. Motorcycles can turn, swerve, and brake more effectively than any other type of vehicle on the road so I if can't do it that's because I lack the skills. Those will only come by doing drills and exercises. That takes more time than I expected.

After I get a few years of experience I'll improve - but not to the point of someone with 20 years of experience riding motorcycles.

None of the riders with 20 or 30 or 40 years of experience can be certain of maneuvering their bikes in a panic situation as well as their cars unless they practice the maneuvers regularly. They know that. They've decided to accept the risks of not practicing. Beginners notice that experienced riders don't practice and might make the mistake of believing those riders have the skills never the less.

ABS reduces fatalities of motorcycle riders by 39%.

Time will tell what contribution ABS makes to avoiding crashes but most bikes don't have it and many bikes will never have it and even if it was on all bikes people still have to practice to have reliable emergency maneuvering skills.

if it increases my chances of survival - I'll take it.

I believe doing drills and exercises until you can maneuver your bike as well as your car will increase chances of survival dramatically.

cept you fail to realize that motorcycle "liscences" went up 157%. so 47% is a very very mute point considering. None of the links you have posted have proved ANYTHING towards saying those who have taken safety courses are just as likely to get into an accident because they didnt learn anything from the course. Again show me real proof. also a direct quote from your michigan link.

Death rate for motorcycles has fallen by 70%

Tells me that hey maybe the MSF course actually DOES help save lives and teach people to become safer. Of course that link doesnt say anything for or against my statment i just made other than the death rate has fallen.

[RhadamYgg]

What's hard to ignore is the number of single vehicle motorcycle crashes, 47%.

There is a certain component of the single-vehicle crashes that belongs in the rider skill department. However, about half of the single-vehicle motorcycle accidents are drunk drivers.

Interestingly enough, about half of the multi-vehicle accidents involving accidents are drunk riders.

It is close to 50% of motorcyclist accidents that involve drunk riders. Similar to the drunk rider we made fun of a while back that stopped at a light and put his feet up on the pegs... Without having any stands down - dropping his bike in front of a cop and getting busted as a drunk rider.

RhadamYgg

The numbers you mention don't seem to reflect what's going on in Michigan. From the Michigan study cited earlier.
http://www.motorcyclesafetyinfo.com/mic ... chigan.pdf
"• Alcohol and/or drug use are indicated in 38.2% of motorcycle operator FATALITIES.
• Alcohol and/or drug use are indicated in 39.8% of ALL driver FATALITIES.
• Alcohol and/or drug use are indicated with 7.5% of motorcycle operators involved in a motorcycle CRASH.
• Alcohol and/or drug use are indicated with 2.4% of drivers involved in ALL crashes."

Riding DUI increases the chance of dying in a crash but it's not an factor in the overwhelming majority of crashes.

2001 Fatal Single Vehicle Motorcycle Crashes

Unfortunately, the government doesn't do this study every year - which they should. This report is from 2001 - and covers the years 1990 to 1999.

In that time frame:
The minimum percentage of fatal single vehicle motorcycle accidents was 43%.
The maximum percentage of fatal single vehicle motorcycle accidents was 47%.

41% of those accidents - were from excessive speed.
42% of those accidents - involved intoxicated motorcyclists.

(please note that the 41% and the 41% probably overlap, but are not specifically the same people - means that some people died because of speeding but weren't drunk and some people who were drunk and died weren't necessary speeding.... Unfortunately, they don't give us enough information to tell what the overlap of these two groups are)
...
61% of fatal single vehicle motorcycle accidents that occurred on the weekend involved... intoxicated motorcyclists.

In the list of major factors in single vehicle motorcycle fatalities... It lists a few things... Drinking and riding and speeding among them, but it does not specifically list motorcyclist skill level.

Now, I'm sure skill level has something to do with at least some of these... But you first have to eliminate the drunks and the speeders from the entire group (impossible to do since they don't list the data properly)... But certainly saying that 5% of each group is not a part of the other gives us close to half the fatalities don't involve skill alone.

Certainly, I'm not going to argue that some of them in the speeding category simple overrode their skill level or their sight distance.

Before we get too far in to this... Using the data one could easily argue that we should ban all larger displacement bikes as most of the fatalities occur in large displacement bikes... Or we could use our head and understand that most of the fatalities occur on larger displacement bikes because.... Most of us buy larger displacement bikes...

Speeding as factor... oh they do list some it properly.
The minimum percentage over this time period where speeding was a factor in the single vehicle motorcycle fatality - 54%.
The maximum percentage over this time period where speeding was a factor in the single vehicle motorcycle fatality - 63%.

Interestingly enough... A great deal of us die in single vehicle motorcycle accidents do absolutely nothing (swerve, brake) before crashing. (28% to 28%). I'm guessing that skill doesn't play in most of these. Some of these might also be speeding accidents where there was simply no chance to do something before impacting a vehicle from behind at a high speed.

There is also a section of the report with a great graph on page 26... It lists fatalities by Blood Alcohol Content. Red + Blue = greater than 50% of single vehicle motorcycle fatalities involved riders that were either drunk, or had been drinking recently. (Chart 4)

This is a good link for a variety of NHTSA documentation:
NHTSA Docs

In the Motorcycling Excellence book from the MSF... It has a nice section on Alcohol involvement and the ability to ride motorcycles. They indicated that long before a person was legally drunk, their ability to ride a motorcycle was significantly impaired.

Another interesting like to reports by the NHTSA - NHTSA Reports

Fatal Two-Vehicle Motorcycle crashes

This document points out:
"Alcohol involvement among motorcycle operators killed was almost 2.5 times the alcohol involvement of the passenger vehicle drivers involved in these crashes."

"Nearly one-fourth (24%) of the motorcycle operators killed in two-vehicle crashes involving passenger vehicles, had an invalid license at the time of the crash compared to 8 percent of the passenger vehicle drivers."

This is a good indication that the riders had zero training from an official source. Training and practice are a very hard battle when you can't even get 24% of motorcycle riders to even - you know - get the appropriate license.

"In 13 percent of the two-vehicle motorcycle crashes involving passenger vehicles, braking was reported as a crash avoidance maneuver by the motorcycle operators."

The above 13%... Are the ones you are targeting with the training and stopping in an appropriate time. However, it would be hard to say what percentage of those 13% would actually have enough space to stop if they were a pro at braking.

I love this stat they point out:
"Nearly 62,000 motorcycle riders died in multivehicle motorcycle crashes between 1975 and 2005."

It takes approximately 2 years for the number of people to die in cars and light trucks to catch up to the number of motorcyclists that have died in 30 years.

So, from this document on the multivehicle side - 23% of fatal motorcycle accidents involve alcohol on the part of the motorcyclists.

Percentage of multivehicle accidents involving alcohol
|> 23% + 42% = 65% of all motorcyclists fatal accidents
^ ^^--> percentage of all bike fatalities inv. alcohol.
Percentage of single-vehicle accidents involving alcohol

This doesn't mean that the motorcyclists were drunk, but it does mean they had alcohol in their systems at the time of the collision that cost their life.

Bleh, this post is too large already and I'm tired.

As they advertise in the back of the biker mags.... Don't drink and ride.

Not saying you don't need skills to survive on a bike. Just saying that in terms of what I would attack first to reduce fatalities, I'd go after something that is more controllable than skills - I'd go after drunk riding.

RhadamYgg

[beginner]

My point is one thing. That a significant percentage of crashes are from lack of skills that require regular drills and exercises to maintain no matter how "experienced" the rider is.

Most riders would rather cruise around than practice. Perhaps that's living dangerously and experienced riders know that and decide to accept the risk but that example influences beginners who are more vulnerable to crashes involving lack of skill.

My recent personal experience, described earlier, is that a diligent hour a day of drills and exercises in a parking lot for 6 months was not enough to maneuver the bike even as well as my car in an emergency. Then, even to ride up to my beginner skill level, I have to warmup on some exercises for at least 15 minutes before the first ride of the day.

What the MSF teaches about drills and exercises is the norm. They suggest some exercises to beginners and advise, practice until you can do them "without a problem." They do not say that riders should expect to continue doing drills and exercises forever, just to remain proficient.

[tymanthius]

My point is one thing. That a significant percentage of crashes are from lack of skills that require regular drills and exercises to maintain no matter how "experienced" the rider is.

Most riders would rather cruise around than practice. Perhaps that's living dangerously and experienced riders know that and decide to accept the risk but that example influences beginners who are more vulnerable to crashes involving lack of skill.

My recent personal experience, described earlier, is that a diligent hour a day of drills and exercises in a parking lot for 6 months was not enough to maneuver the bike even as well as my car in an emergency. Then, even to ride up to my beginner skill level, I have to warmup on some exercises for at least 15 minutes before the first ride of the day.

What the MSF teaches about drills and exercises is the norm. They suggest some exercises to beginners and advise, practice until you can do them "without a problem." They do not say that riders should expect to continue doing drills and exercises forever, just to remain proficient.

That is your opinion. Everyone gets that, I think. But you haven't offered substantiating facts to back your opinion, and yet you want others to take your opinion as an accepted theory.

We need better hard data to do that.

I have no valid opinion - I don't ride yet.

[Brackstone]

My point is one thing. That a significant percentage of crashes are from lack of skills that require regular drills and exercises to maintain no matter how "experienced" the rider is.

Most riders would rather cruise around than practice. Perhaps that's living dangerously and experienced riders know that and decide to accept the risk but that example influences beginners who are more vulnerable to crashes involving lack of skill.

My recent personal experience, described earlier, is that a diligent hour a day of drills and exercises in a parking lot for 6 months was not enough to maneuver the bike even as well as my car in an emergency. Then, even to ride up to my beginner skill level, I have to warmup on some exercises for at least 15 minutes before the first ride of the day.

What the MSF teaches about drills and exercises is the norm. They suggest some exercises to beginners and advise, practice until you can do them "without a problem." They do not say that riders should expect to continue doing drills and exercises forever, just to remain proficient.

I'm not trying to be a dick but have you considered maybe you're just not a good motorcyclist?

I mean your basically saying "If I practice this much and I STILL can't ride safely then NONE of you can possibly be any more proficient since you don't practice like I do". That just doesn't seem to make sense.

That's like saying if anyone practices playing basketball everyday eventually they'll be good. Some people just aren't meant to do certain things or at least not do them well.

[RhadamYgg]

My point is one thing. That a significant percentage of crashes are from lack of skills that require regular drills and exercises to maintain no matter how "experienced" the rider is.

Most riders would rather cruise around than practice. Perhaps that's living dangerously and experienced riders know that and decide to accept the risk but that example influences beginners who are more vulnerable to crashes involving lack of skill.

My recent personal experience, described earlier, is that a diligent hour a day of drills and exercises in a parking lot for 6 months was not enough to maneuver the bike even as well as my car in an emergency. Then, even to ride up to my beginner skill level, I have to warmup on some exercises for at least 15 minutes before the first ride of the day.

What the MSF teaches about drills and exercises is the norm. They suggest some exercises to beginners and advise, practice until you can do them "without a problem." They do not say that riders should expect to continue doing drills and exercises forever, just to remain proficient.

Most documentation that I've seen in the MSF proposes that people be 'lifelong learners' - including books like the Proficient Motorcycling book and I believe the Motorcycling Excellence book.

If your point is leaning towards that MSF honeycoating the dangers of motorcycling or the capabilities it requires... I actually think you are right. But I also think you are putting wayyyy too much effort in to motorcycling. I didn't hit the roads until I was comfortable with doing it. I rode back and forth in my neighborhood doing U-turns and stuff over and over again until I graduated to going around a large block and so on and so forth.

Now, specifically you talk about doing figure 8's and that this take a lot of effort - and you know in the MSF course I had trouble with it, without a doubt.

How much I think figure-8's will save my life on the road is another story.

Maximum braking, yep, lifesaving technique.

Double swerve, yep lifesaving technique.

Straightening up and braking in a turn, definitely.

Making a U-turn? I don't make many in real life - and the turns I make in store parking lots are no where near as tight as U-turns.

Now, U-turns are nice for teaching you about what you can get your bike to do. But it isn't what I would consider a lifesaving skill.

RhadamYgg