Total Motorcycle Community Forums

Lion_Lady wrote:I found it surprising to realize that Maryland (a helmet law state), has a similar helmet/no helmet fatality ratio to Alabama.

Given my own "analysis" of local news reports of motorcycle fatalities, most seem to involve speed, or spring rides (the first warm days of spring always brings out rusty riders) gone horribly wrong.

P

I wish there were more accident investigators who were familiar with motorcycles. A significant amount of "excessive speed" accidents are really "failure to look through the turn" incidents.

Then again there are plenty of those "ran a red light doing 75 in a 35" problems.

Vehicle Miles Travelled is a tough number to use with any accuracy.

The problem is that not all states are required to report mileage. So, they don't. The VMT - is an estimate.

It may be right and it may be wrong. This is something that David Hough goes in to in his Proficient Motorcycling book - just a blurb in a paragraph.

So, the idea that you are 35 times more at risk for dying on a motorcycle is probably overstated. It probably wouldn't be wrong to say that you have a higher chance on a bike of being a fatality. But not, I think 35 times as much.

I'm pretty sure that NJ reports miles, they checked the odometer when I took my Ninja through inspection.

RhadamYgg

It seems that speed is usually the first "step" up that ladder of risk.

We've got a fair # of sportbikers who cream themselves all over the median, or guard rail on an exit ramp, because they first of all, entered a curve too fast for their skills, and panicked.

P

Lion_Lady wrote:It seems that speed is usually the first "step" up that ladder of risk.

We've got a fair # of sportbikers who cream themselves all over the median, or guard rail on an exit ramp, because they first of all, entered a curve too fast for their skills, and panicked.

P

Speed was a significant factor in a boatload of accidents. Some of them didn't involve turning, when you watch news.google.com searching for motorcycle - you'll see over time that a number of fatalities involve speeding and not being able to stop in time for slowing traffic ahead.

I certainly hope to not be a part of either of those groups.

RhadamYgg

Lion_Lady wrote:It seems that speed is usually the first "step" up that ladder of risk.

We've got a fair # of sportbikers who cream themselves all over the median, or guard rail on an exit ramp, because they first of all, entered a curve too fast for their skills, and panicked.

P

Here's another way to look at it: more than likely, the motorcycle could make the corner at entry speed. The panicking rider is the problem, not speed. If they were to look through to corner and trust their bike they would merely have a starfish shaped hole in their seat rather than having to be cleaned up by EMTs.

The accident investigators that aren't riders likely have a tough time distinguishing between excessive speed (for the bike) and rider error (not looking through the curve). Both will end up with failure to negotiate the corner accidents but unless one knows motorcycles and motorcycle tires well, it's quite easy to write down "excessive speed" and call it a day.

Skier wrote:

Lion_Lady wrote:It seems that speed is usually the first "step" up that ladder of risk.

We've got a fair # of sportbikers who cream themselves all over the median, or guard rail on an exit ramp, because they first of all, entered a curve too fast for their skills, and panicked.

P

Here's another way to look at it: more than likely, the motorcycle could make the corner at entry speed. The panicking rider is the problem, not speed. If they were to look through to corner and trust their bike they would merely have a starfish shaped hole in their seat rather than having to be cleaned up by EMTs.

The accident investigators that aren't riders likely have a tough time distinguishing between excessive speed (for the bike) and rider error (not looking through the curve). Both will end up with failure to negotiate the corner accidents but unless one knows motorcycles and motorcycle tires well, it's quite easy to write down "excessive speed" and call it a day.

I'm trying, but I still don't get what you mean by starfish shaped hole in their seat. I'm thinking about substances that eek out of bodily orifices, but I'm still not quite there.

RhadamYgg

Think about puckering up in a hurry.

Is "excessive speed" defined as "too fast for that rider's ability" or "too fast for that bike's ability"? When police write tickets, it's usually "XXmph beyond posted limits" or "speed too fast for conditions," at least for cars. I am assuming that when an investigator writes that excessive speed was a primary cause or contributing factor in an accident, that some physics are taken into account. such as trajectories, skid marks and the like. Say I take a curve too fast on a bike and wipe out, and Lion Lady takes the same curve on the same bike at the same speed, or even faster, and makes the curve just fine. As a statistic, speed was a major factor for me, because I was going too fast for my ability. Now, an experienced rider could probably tell me exactly what else I failed to do--look through the turn, lean in, not freeze up, DON'T LOCK THE BRAKES, etc. But it is more true that, until I have those skills better in place, I cannot take that turn that fast. My speed was a major factor.

For investigators, it isn't a teaching moment. For the MSF and others who want to use the data to update their curricula, it most certainly is.

MZ33 wrote:Is "excessive speed" defined as "too fast for that rider's ability" or "too fast for that bike's ability"?

Yes.

And "too fast" can be different on different days and in different conditions for different riders.

P

Skier wrote:

Lion_Lady wrote:It seems that speed is usually the first "step" up that ladder of risk.

We've got a fair # of sportbikers who cream themselves all over the median, or guard rail on an exit ramp, because they first of all, entered a curve too fast for their skills, and panicked.

P

The accident investigators that aren't riders likely have a tough time distinguishing between excessive speed (for the bike) and rider error (not looking through the curve). Both will end up with failure to negotiate the corner accidents but unless one knows motorcycles and motorcycle tires well, it's quite easy to write down "excessive speed" and call it a day.

True enough, but isn't too much speed the essential factor?

More than a few of us have had the experience of going into a curve too fast, and then realizing we're looking at the guardrail, etc, NOT "through the turn" - in time to wrench our eyes around where they need to be.

It all begins with speed.

P