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"we need to look at why they hate us and change that. i mean they dont call us the great satan for nothing."

Great, but why should we change for fear of offending a civilization 6,000 miles away? Yes, I know we have muslim people here, but they're not the ones we're worried about, are they?

The instant we start pandering to the will of every foreign government that doesn't like some aspect of what we do, be it internal affairs or foreign affairs, we are nothing more than a pawn nation waiting to be invaded by a stronger will. Funny... China's been saying almost the exact same thing for years. If anyone in this world has reason to hate us, it would be them. We've had our hands in their policymaking for so many years, through stringent control of export/import volume, that many of their complaints of "Who controls our nation, us or them?" are not entirely invalid.

That being said, when faced with an enemy with whom there can be no communication, no mediation, and no peace... there is only one option. Destroy or be destroyed.

I'm sort of survivalist when it comes to people like the islamicist terrorists. We've tried and tried, and we continue to try, to understand what it is they want so that we can resolve differences peacefully, but the attacks keep coming, the terrorist propaganda keeps flowing. So long as they wage war on our nation and its peoples abroad, I fully support taking the fight to their backyards and killing them on their own ground.

Missing fourth option: Starve them of moral authority.

People aren't born terrorists (I've been saying this ever since 9/11; Wes Clark repeated it in an op-ed piece in today's USA Toady).

They become terrorists because they learn to hate the larger world, and find the terror act to be the easy means to express their hate.

They become members of terror organizations because that organization offers them an easy path to that expression.

That organization can market itself to them because it has a great enemy in common with the prospective terrorist.

So, if you want a terror organization to grow, all you have to do is give more disgruntled people a reason to hate you.

Which seems to be George W. Bush's core competency.

Is that his fault? I don't think so. He seems a little too dumb, too handled, to be making such policy on his own. He's naturally manipulated by his retinue into doing what they believe is right - and what they believe is right seems to depend on their personal and political desires, prejudices, and emotional reactions, more often than any true consideration of the common good.

The Bush administration had 80% of the world's nations on its side after 9/11/2001, and through the end of 2002. Instead of solidifying that support and ennabling it to stop terror in progress and prevent the growth of the hate that becomes terrorism, they abused domestic political fervor and hatred to commit an even bigger act of terrorism (when I hear "shock and awe" I transpose it from Public-Relation-speak to English and it says "terror") by constructing a phony plan (credible evidence exists of their efforts to "fix the facts around the policy") to attack a nation that was not a significant threat to us.

In so doing, they gave the moral authority to the enemy. They created a hundred times more recruiting power for Islamic Militant terror than ever existed before. And since the enemy is not a single organization, taking out its head will not stop its disparate elements from attacking anyone.

Bringing the Islamic world - which at 1.3 billion members far outnumbers America's ability to win any contest, military or political - closer to us and using our post-9/11 political clout to convince it to be our ally in fighting terror should have been our first priority. Instead, our government took the self-aggrandizing expedient of whacking a hornet's nest with a stick.

There was another story in the paper today about a group of high-end Islamic leaders planning to issue a fatwa against the perpetrators of the London bombings. If we'd engendered that kind of support three years ago, instead of preparing to attack Iraq, London would never have happened, the Islamic world would be our police against all traitors to the peaceful interpretation of Islam, and al Quaeda would be a dwindling pariah with a few dozen members hiding together in caves, instead of hundreds of thousands, some of whom don't even need to communicate with bin Laden to conduct his war.

1700 Americans killed in Iraq, tens of thousands wounded, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis killed or maimed, thousands of bombing victims around the world killed or maimed, all preventable or reducible, but for the grandstanding, incompetence, bigotry, and bloodlust of a few people who have abused the inefficiencies in our form of democracy to execute their venal plans.

It's time to change the regime in our nation. Get back to rational decisionmaking instead of pious, simpleminded sophistry. Take back the moral authority that we ceded to the enemy in March of 2003. Fight terror by abating hate.

the problem with trying to establish a democracy in a country surrounded by other countries that are controlled by thugs and tribal leaders is the fear that if one nation goes democratic then the others will follow.if this happens then the present leaders are out.they fear this above all.so pick a bunch of losers and convince them to strap on a bomb and go blow themselves up and kill some infidels,all the while hiding their own agenda behind some supposed religious war.above all you must convince the bombers that you are too important to carry one of the bombs but they aint.

blair wrote:Missing fourth option: Starve them of moral authority.

That was a great post Blair. Well said.

I'm inclined to agree with you Aggraton, What we should be asking ourselves is why there is so much hatred towards the westerners? World leaders should be sitting down and talking with each other and try and work something out between them. It's no good going in with Bully Boy tactics, violence just breeds violence. If leaders and governments want to fight, put the world leaders in a boxing ring I'm sorry but I dont agree with any kind of killing, life is too precious.

barmy_carmy wrote:If leaders and governments want to fight, put the world leaders in a boxing ring

Maybe a couple of years ago, we'd have stood a chance in this sort of event with Margaret Thatcher, but Blair would lose every time.... Also this would cause people like arnold schwarzneggar to be elected by the people.. Oh, too late!

One thing about the democratic question:

Iran is a democracy. They just held elections. And moved even farther away from us. (And a couple of days later signed a military training pact with Iraq...)

Democracy is a means, not an end.

Our worship of democracy comes to us from our hatred of theocracy and monarchy (two ultra-conservative, anti-liberal (note the small 'c' and 'l') government styles). But Jefferson himself knew it was flawed.

We could sell democracy to every nation on Earth, and then they'd have the Fallacy of Appeal to Popularity to throw at us while they're arguing for war.

The problem isn't how they choose their political leaders; it's how we as a liberal society choose to try to lead them to elect people who will then lead them to be our friends.

Again, it's the shortsighted selfishness of the current government we have chosen "democratically" that negates the value intended when we constituted ourselves as a democracy.

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(You think Publius ever rode a motorcycle?)

Blah, blah blah.

They hate us because of MTV, Rock and Roll, Bikinis, giving women the right to an education and vote., Playboy magazine, free speech, blue jeans. etc.

All this other crap your spouting is BS. If your willing to give up everything that makes you an American, then go ahead, be an idiot, move there.

I for one am glad my wife can drive the kids to school and work to help me pay the bills. I like watching R rated movies and listening to classic rock. I will never surender to them. I will kill them or be killed when they knock at my door.

Appeasers are fools. It has never worked and never will.

And where are the moderate muslims? I have yet to meet one. I had a doctor that got fired from his practice after 9/11 for openly stating that he was glad it happened. Somebody should have cut his head off.

bennettoid wrote:Blah, blah blah.

They hate us because of MTV, Rock and Roll, Bikinis, giving women the right to an education and vote., Playboy magazine, free speech, blue jeans. etc.

All this other "crumb" your spouting is BS. If your willing to give up everything that makes you an American, then go ahead, be an idiot, move there.

I for one am glad my wife can drive the kids to school and work to help me pay the bills. I like watching R rated movies and listening to classic rock. I will never surender to them. I will kill them or be killed when they knock at my door.

Appeasers are fools. It has never worked and never will.

And where are the moderate muslims? I have yet to meet one. I had a doctor that got fired from his practice after 9/11 for openly stating that he was glad it happened. Somebody should have cut his head off.

ok every reason you listed is a cultural difference and although it may fuel the fire...if you really think thats the only reason they hate us...please get a clue...you hate them for the same reasons they hate us. we bombed the "poo poo" out of them...or paid someone else do it...and weve been doing it for years. as much as you would like to think it...the usa is not innocent...we have just as much blood on our hands.

I am by no means an expert on why terrorists do what they do, and to tell you the truth I don't care. If we change the way we live or act because of terrorists then they already won. I WILL NOT CHANGE THE WAY I LIVE!!!! As far as the whole muslim thing, lets not forget that not all muslims are terrorists and not all terrorists are muslim. And if we change the way we act around muslims then the terrorists have won another victory. We cannot judge all people of a certain race or religion based on the stupidity of a few. And I am fully aware of some of the severly wrong things the US has done in its past, however when was the last time we crashed a 747 into another countries building, or burned another countries flag. People in the US make mistakes, but the citisens of this country will not stand for it. We punish our own men and women for inhuman acts, terrorists get awarded for it. How dare anybody compare the US and our allies with terrorists. And please don't respond with some kind of conspiracy theory that you read on the internet about secret US missions into other countries. The war on terrorism must be fought, and we must win. I do not want my children to have to worry every time they go to work whether they will make it home or get killed in a terrorist attack. That, ladies and gentlemen concludes my rant!!