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sapaul wrote:She said, "How can I ever fit in a lifetime of riding that you have had. Every time I learn something, so do you. I will never be able to catch up" The problem is that she is probably right. If that is the case then it is up to me to make the adjustments, not for her to ride beyond her limits.

This is a hugely false belief, and the self-defeating attitude behind it needs to be forgotten. It's completely misguided. The falseness is easily disproven by anyone who has spent time working with a range of riders. As one example we've had new riders from a large range of ages join our racing club at all stages of life (i.e. 4 years old and 50+). Starting off in a mini-racing environment on gokart tracks and some of them becoming national and international riders (Brett McCormick and Chris Peris as examples). And other older riders who have went on to dominate there local scene. We've also taught advanced street riding techniques. Even with bad instruction, people can still learn because THE BIKE is all you need to really be aware of, rather than some poor instructors lessons.

With learning riding and through instructing, watching and guiding other riders, and talking with other friends and instructors with a more instructing experience than I, it only takes about 3-5 years of good dedicated practice to become a decent rider (advanced), even less in many cases. You will be better than most people ever reach. To do this you have to focus your energy on the learning process. People's lack of skill generally shows how LITTLE effort most people put into there riding once they feel they have "mastered" the basics. In my experience the basics are what most people dont return to often enough to advance there skill level.

So... just enjoy yourself and keep learning. The average advanced street riders skills are only a few years away if you work at becoming a good rider.

QM have just read your post with interest. I too have less experience on the road than my fella but on the whole he is patient.

I prefer to ride behind him as he does ride well (1 accident in past 20yrs) & I can watch his roadline. Also as he rides a big bike (Rocket III) I feel he "warns" other road users that there are bikes about.

Speed wise he encourages me to be more confident but occasionally takes off ahead of me for a blast. Depending on conditions & my mood I sometimes keep up & sometimes let him go. He always waits ahead at a safe point for me to catch up.

My main learning curve appears to be stamina. He would ride much longer than me without a break, but I feel my concentration levels drop more quickly. When we first went out together he didn't alway recognise this. Now I am more assertive & if feeling stressed or tired I will just stop.

The other way I have found to build my confidence is to get out more on my own.

So skill wise I am moving forward even if I don't catch him up!

The only thing I cannot change is the "been there, done that" reply when I suggest a venue, but that's not limited to bikes.........that's just life!

"Been there, done that" is a common response from someone who is more self-interested than interested in actaully teaching you. So your guy is really just saying, ride with me and you will learn. It has some success, and it works in it's own way, but it just takes time. If you want to learn faster, you need to find someone who dedicates time for you and is more of an instructor rather than someone who just rides.

Basically, with learning something new, I think finding someone who understands how you learn is the key, (strengths and weaknesses)... be that an instructor, friend, spouse, boyfriend, girlfriend... other other than that or a larger part of that is having the right personality to give the "student" the energy they need... trust communication, instruction, feedback, which comes from that relationship. Some people are responsive to verbal or written communication and others to non-verbal and more active, expressive communication.

Strengths and weaknesses in relationships are often highlighted when learning together or assuming a teacher/student situation too. So lots of *fun* or *chaos* can result... be aware of this and find a someone who you are comfortable with, or work first at establishing some guidelines with the person helping you out.

The more positive motivation the better - a bigger goal, reason to learn, fun, support, encouragement, etc. --- some people need subtle encouragement, some rationalization... some need verbal sing-song, and others just a demonstration to watch (just as you follow your guy around and learn by mimicking), or a little focusing of attention on one specific control or one contact point at a time (pick one for ten minutes of riding: rear brake, front brake, clutch, throttle,... or for contact points, try to feel what the bike is communicating through your hands, feet, thighs (i.e. gripping the fuel tank), while turning left, right etc).

The learning methods all depend on the individual, so I try a little of each to see how people react. Once you get to a new level of comfort in your riding, you revist old areas, and you'll often find new feelings and discoveries, new insights. Also as you gain comfort, your less rational mind will give you new ideas to try and you should later consider what it was telling you, and why it may have worked better than your previous riding technique.

A large barrier to learning is institutional instructors who are often confined to rigid methods and have there own limiting beliefs. When someone is having a difficult time learning something new, the variety of learning approaches should be tried, and also the limiting fears can be sorted out. Often with immediate success. Poor instruction is often the largest hindrance to learning. Ive seen some of the worst instructors and often taken time to explain these things to instructors, and sadly, instructors with big ego's, limited or single methods of instruction, miscommunication, and impatience are the biggest problems. There own inability to consider that they are limited and inferior riders to many others.

I've seen students who were more adept than instructors. It happens. Many instructors become stagnant (unmotivated, unchallenged, lazy, or overwhelmed by workload, etc.). Everyone needs motivation to learn and the best instructors and ongoing students themselves always looking to advance skills. Instructing groups is never as effective as individual instruction either.

so that's another 2-cents to consider...

throw out what doesnt make sense and try out the stuff that does, then revisit the ideas again at a later time..

er, you missed out on one important factor

there comes a time when an SO cannot teach another SO. It's just one of life's facts. I hear your logic and methods but in my case, we have 2 people constantly learning, one of which has had a lifetimes head start.

sapaul wrote:er, you missed out on one important factor

there comes a time when an SO cannot teach another SO. It's just one of life's facts.

.......and recognizing this early on is a great way to stay married.....

High_Side wrote:

sapaul wrote:er, you missed out on one important factor

there comes a time when an SO cannot teach another SO. It's just one of life's facts.

.......and recognizing this early on is a great way to stay married.....

Ah there are at least 2 people (or actually 4 ) that understand this very basic principle

Yeah, I understand this is different for everyone too, and as I mentioned, the relationship dynamic is one of the key issues to learning, and for sure the way you and your significant other have created your larger relationship definitely affects the learning process.

And like HS said, maybe the spouse is not the best instructor because of bits of relationship dynamics. Of course letting her (in his case) be the boss, may work really well, because when she is ready to move onto something new she will relinquish a little control and be more open to his advice, and he'll have had LOTS of time to think about the best way to deliver it. It's MotoMonkey Relationship Therapy 101... of course you need a wife who is of the right relationship to do this, and I have seen many more relationships that these rather "ideal" techniques will not work in at all. So as usual ya gotta think on your feet, know what and who you are working with and improvise new approaches to find a learning solution. Things like "I'll pay for dinner if you trust me on this and try this technique" might just work... and there a thousand more ideas depending upon each specific situation and many reasons to pass and let another instructor in to do the work.

In your specific case, SApaul the learning process is not as cut-and-dried as most, because of extensive learning time on the bike, BUT there are only so many principles to becoming a good-to-excellent street rider. Certainly people say the learning never ends, but it does slow down and often plateau for long periods despite constant use. Most people do not move deeply into higher levels of street riding, like stunting and trials (as someone like Christian Pfieffer) because there is little reason to become this advanced. And other higher level learning can come from different areas, including skiing or other sports, and just the mental attention required, memory, and physical fitness can for gains in one's riding ability.

I find changing bikes also helps to understand different techniques and gauge the validity of techniques for specific instances. You may also consider that one lesser rider on a sportbike can have a clear advantage over a superior rider on a cruiser. The wheel-base, center of gravity, shifting of weight, weight bias front-to-rear, control feel, engine design, etc.. all have marked changes in the ability to ride the thing and the familiarity with each bike. One rider can also be superior in one area of riding but inferior in another... so the whole LINEAR learning thing just doesnt hold water.

If you were to be constantly learning REALLY new techniques you can go through a longer and steeper lifetime of learning. i.e. commuting, ice racing, trials, stunting, motocross, rallying, long-distance touring, etc... then you pick up more and more. Sometimes things even at the highest level are stagnant for years.

One example in roadracing is that in last few years in MotoGP, Rossi started hanging off his inside leg while braking into corners. People thought variously was a showing-off thing, or sticking his leg out to make himself look less stable or become wider to block inside passes... yet over another year or two it has been shown that this technique that people thought was also sort of a dirt-bike "just in case I lose the front i might be able to slam my foot down" technique, turns out that it works much the same as weighting the outside peg while EXITING the corner. It gives you more weight transfer to the tire and keeps the front planted better, just as it keeps the rear planted a little better when weighting the peg on the way out of the corner.

So again, learning is not a strictly linear process... we all plateau at certain stages, and get stuck, set in your ways, or lazy. In reality, street riding doesnt require techniques that are all that advanced most of the time, and a large part of street riding also comes down to managing the traffic flow and your surroundings. In other words it's not all to do with the riding skills.

Also building confidence with real world skills is important, and having an attitude that is amiable to learning, and becoming a better rider yourself rather than being envious of another riders superior skills, perceived or otherwise is key.

That's 4-cents keep the change, throw it out, or turn a profit with it.