Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 3:57 pm
Hmmm I thought the police in Britain didn't even pack guns..............
Whatta-ya-know?
Whatta-ya-know?
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Brazilian Wanted to Earn Money to Go Home
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Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2005 4:17 pm
Justifications aside, an innocent man was killed essentially because he was wearing a coat and had a backpack on. There's really no justification that can take the sting out of that. I'd venture that there's a lot of people who wouldn't stop immediately in a frenzied situation like this simply because if you are innocent you can't fathom that they mean YOU should stop. You haven't done anything so why would the cops be yelling at you? Not one iota of blame for this goes on the Brazilian man. If total innocence is not a defense, what is? I can UNDERSTAND what happened... I just don't think it justifies it and I don't think any of you would either if it happened to be one of your innocent family members that got shot. that he was from Brazil and not British is completely beside the point. While I do feel for the cops in this situation, their grief pales in comparison to the family of the executed electrician.
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:00 am
We have Armed Response Officers. They get to carry the most approriate weapon for their duties. You are most likely to see them carrying MP5 variants at locations such as Crown Courts and Airports.
Accidental shootings happen, the biggest one last year was a very drunk Irish carpenter who had a table leg in a bag. He was too drunk to understand the Armed Response challange and they believed the table leg was a shotgun.
Its unusual for Armed Response to be out of uniform, it does happen but they are usually Diplomatic Protection Officers. I've been wondering of the Officer was MI5, not that it actually makes any difference.
Early reports stated that wiring could be seen under the mans jacket. Armed Response have been specifically told that they are to take no chances with suspected bombers, detonators can be set up any number of ways.
This man spoke "very good" english and didnt stop for the "Armed Police" challange. I know that as I am not bullet proof I personally I will freeze if challanged by Armed Response. In all fairness the last thing Armed Response want to do is have to shoot someone, what they want is to take you into custody, if you dont comply then they will fire because they dont believe they have another choice.
I dont applaud the Officers for the shooting but at this point in time I'll not condemn them for treating a running suspect as a Suicide Bomber.
In case you'd missed it we do have terrorists operating in the UK at the moment and unless we accept the terrorists killing civilians Armed Response are going to be repeatedly put in the situation of deciding if people are likely terrorists or not.
Personally, and you wil probably flame me for this, I'd rather the Officers took no chances rather than have a preventable replay of the events of the 7th.
Accidental shootings happen, the biggest one last year was a very drunk Irish carpenter who had a table leg in a bag. He was too drunk to understand the Armed Response challange and they believed the table leg was a shotgun.
Its unusual for Armed Response to be out of uniform, it does happen but they are usually Diplomatic Protection Officers. I've been wondering of the Officer was MI5, not that it actually makes any difference.
Early reports stated that wiring could be seen under the mans jacket. Armed Response have been specifically told that they are to take no chances with suspected bombers, detonators can be set up any number of ways.
This man spoke "very good" english and didnt stop for the "Armed Police" challange. I know that as I am not bullet proof I personally I will freeze if challanged by Armed Response. In all fairness the last thing Armed Response want to do is have to shoot someone, what they want is to take you into custody, if you dont comply then they will fire because they dont believe they have another choice.
I dont applaud the Officers for the shooting but at this point in time I'll not condemn them for treating a running suspect as a Suicide Bomber.
In case you'd missed it we do have terrorists operating in the UK at the moment and unless we accept the terrorists killing civilians Armed Response are going to be repeatedly put in the situation of deciding if people are likely terrorists or not.
Personally, and you wil probably flame me for this, I'd rather the Officers took no chances rather than have a preventable replay of the events of the 7th.
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:08 am
i just keep thinking if this situation happened in the us, the uk would be the first to bad mouth the us for going around killing people and causing more 'terror' just like the 'war' in iraq has been critiqued. but since it happend in the uk they will defend it to the end, had been here then wed all be gun totting lunatics.
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 5:55 am
How many accidental shootings are there by the Police in the US???
Yes we have them too, but not many - which is why when we have an accidental shooting over here it is news of national interest.
For the record when we go to Florida in October I plan on being as Polite and helpful as I can be to the Nice, Friendly and above all else armed Police Officers I meet there.
Yes we have them too, but not many - which is why when we have an accidental shooting over here it is news of national interest.
For the record when we go to Florida in October I plan on being as Polite and helpful as I can be to the Nice, Friendly and above all else armed Police Officers I meet there.
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:23 am
I know it sounds horrible, but I was expecting something like this. The police will be all keyed up because of the recent wave of suicide bombings. They've been ordered to "shoot to kill" because even a wounded suicide bomber can set off his bomb. And they're probably terrified that it could happen again. Regular police officers are now being issued fire-arms and told to aim for the head of anyone that they think might be a suicide bomber.
The general public should know this, I mean it showed up in Canadian newspapers days before this guy got shot. If I was in the UK, even being of caucasian descent I'd make a point of doing anything that the cops said, even if I knew they were yelling at someone else. "You on the ground," would have me flat on my face arms spread wide. You aren't guilty, but that doesn't make you impervious to bullets.
I'm not saying that it was his fault, but what I am saying is that.... I don't even know anymore. Obviously it was the polices fault, but apologies don't fix what happened. Unfortunately now they are going to have more trouble taking down real suicide bombers because they're going to hesitate when they shouldn't.
The general public should know this, I mean it showed up in Canadian newspapers days before this guy got shot. If I was in the UK, even being of caucasian descent I'd make a point of doing anything that the cops said, even if I knew they were yelling at someone else. "You on the ground," would have me flat on my face arms spread wide. You aren't guilty, but that doesn't make you impervious to bullets.
I'm not saying that it was his fault, but what I am saying is that.... I don't even know anymore. Obviously it was the polices fault, but apologies don't fix what happened. Unfortunately now they are going to have more trouble taking down real suicide bombers because they're going to hesitate when they shouldn't.
Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2005 6:51 am
I certainly feel for the officers as well. They have a difficult job ahead of them and I'm the first to admit we need them now as much as ever. I'm glad they are there to protect the citizens and legal visitors - hell, to protect the human beings. At the very least though, the killing of an innocent, especially when it is intentional, must be viewed as a mistake, and a grievous one at that. That he was Brazilian clouds the issue for some, but it shouldn't. He was in the country legally. Any one of us could have been on a train with a backpack and a jacket on. No one truly knows how they would react with guns pointed at them and screaming going on - especially when they haven't done anything and when hysteria is rampant after a big attack like that.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 2:09 am
from what I can gather, there was no warning shout, as they feared the suspected bomber would have time to trigger explosion, except he wasnt a terrorist, Thats the bit I cant understand, why shoot him when he was already contained? I know If I saw 3 plainclothes men running towards me and at least one packing a gun, I would run in those circumstances! Try and look at it this way, that man that was shot, what if it had been your brother or your son? But I can also understand the Police way of thinking, after recent occurances. But my view is that the man was already contained, so there was no need to shoot him.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:17 am
the explanation is simple--contained people can set off explosives--dead ones cant.
Posted: Thu Jul 28, 2005 9:32 am
I read a new report today - I can't confirm it, I think it was in The Register - that Scotland Yard now admits that he didn't hop the turn stile, that he did buy a ticket, and that he wasn't wearing a bulky coat. IF (I said IF!) all that is true, it's looking more and more like a horrible mistake and a clumsy attempt at a coverup.
Any UK folks (I know you are being bombarded non-stop with new details) that can confirm those reports? If they are true, it just makes me sick - I don't think the distrust of the police would be as widespread if they would be a bit more transparent when they screw up. I think most people are like me and are much more forgiving of mistakes than lies.
Any UK folks (I know you are being bombarded non-stop with new details) that can confirm those reports? If they are true, it just makes me sick - I don't think the distrust of the police would be as widespread if they would be a bit more transparent when they screw up. I think most people are like me and are much more forgiving of mistakes than lies.