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Ayayayayaya

Sooo what I'm getting here is "your sources are unable to be compared because they're different." Which basically nullifies any comparison either you or I could make about the two countries, including firearm homicides.

Look closer at the FBI definition, it also includes the simple assaults, such as pushing, shoving, purse snatching, etc.

Japan has always had a more respectful culture than we have had. Ask anyone who has studied the culture, anyone who has been there, etc. Several of my friends have been stationed there, and to break up a huge car meet (100+) with DJ competitions and people comparing exhaust notes, you know what they have to do? Get one cop car to make a single pass through the parking lot, and everyone packs up. That simply doesn't happen here. It's simply a completely different culture than the US is. Not sure why that's so hard to get.

I have heard of the autobahn. Have you heard of the German licensure system? Costs thousands of dollars, takes a minimum of a year to get through, an actual driving test instead of a trip around the block, and you have to prove you can do your own maintenance before you can even get on the road. Not to mention that punishment for traffic infractions is much more severe than in the US.

As for the liberal society of Germany and France, that's my opinion based off of friends reports from traveling there. Plenty of them report seeing sex in public in France, plenty of them report business hours being blatantly ignored for the simple reason of "That's the French way" (in fact I forget which company, but a large one is shutting down a plant over there because of that very problem).
As for Germany, maybe not as liberal as France, but definitely more open as well. Stuff that wouldn't be tolerated here is not a problem there. Public nudity, drinking alcohol in public, that's pretty much accepted over there. Try that in the UK or the US and see how long you can avoid arrest.

As for the drop in crime, keep in mind that the drop also includes the ceasefire declared by the IRA fighting for their independence. They alone were responsible for a couple of dozen deaths and plenty of violent attacks.

Wrider wrote: Japan has always had a more respectful culture than we have had. Ask anyone who has studied the culture, anyone who has been there, etc. Several of my friends have been stationed there, and to break up a huge car meet (100+) with DJ competitions and people comparing exhaust notes, you know what they have to do? Get one cop car to make a single pass through the parking lot, and everyone packs up. That simply doesn't happen here. It's simply a completely different culture than the US is. Not sure why that's so hard to get.

If according to you, Japan is so much more respectful culture than the US, then doesn't that weaken your position severely? A respectful culture would be more respectful of firearms. A disrespectful culture as you imply the US to be, would not be respectful of firearms. Which would you rather have holding dangerous weapons; a group of respectful people or a group of disrespectful people?

Wrider wrote: I have heard of the autobahn. Have you heard of the German licensure system? Costs thousands of dollars, takes a minimum of a year to get through, an actual driving test instead of a trip around the block, and you have to prove you can do your own maintenance before you can even get on the road. Not to mention that punishment for traffic infractions is much more severe than in the US.

This is the same in pretty much any industrialized country, the tests are far more difficult to pass than in the US. Driving is a previledge, not a right. So many people in this country does not realize this.

Wrider wrote: As for the liberal society of Germany and France, that's my opinion based off of friends reports from traveling there. Plenty of them report seeing sex in public in France, plenty of them report business hours being blatantly ignored for the simple reason of "That's the French way" (in fact I forget which company, but a large one is shutting down a plant over there because of that very problem).
As for Germany, maybe not as liberal as France, but definitely more open as well. Stuff that wouldn't be tolerated here is not a problem there. Public nudity, drinking alcohol in public, that's pretty much accepted over there. Try that in the UK or the US and see how long you can avoid arrest.

You and I clearly have different definition of liberal...
That being said, I do not know what relevance this has to the fact that gun control has worked very well in Japan, UK, Iceland, & Denmark as I originally mentioned.

Wrider wrote: As for the drop in crime, keep in mind that the drop also includes the ceasefire declared by the IRA fighting for their independence. They alone were responsible for a couple of dozen deaths and plenty of violent attacks.

Wow you see the huge irony in your statement? So a fact that a ceasefire of firearm was ordered was the reason there was a drop in death and violent attacks? Gee...what a shocker!

Not necessarily. That to me means that they respect each other a whole lot more than people in the US do, which means less violence in general, and much less murder period.

I definitely agree with you on the US having a way-too-easy driving test.

According to you, since all guns in those countries are outlawed, there ought to be zero gun violence, correct? Unfortunately that is not the case. It may be old and sound simple, but the saying "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is very true.

Also unfortunate for your argument is the fact that Switzerland has a lower gun crime rate than almost any other country, yet has a full military firearm and ammo for said firearm in almost every civilian house.

How about here on the home front where Houston had 52 gun related murders in 2012, whereas Chicago, which has a whole lot more gun laws and doesn't have the illegal immigration problems, had over 500?

Or Kennesaw, GA, where they passed an admittedly unenforceable but widely followed law to require a gun in every household, and crime subsequently dropped 89%.

Insulting my intelligence won't get you anywhere. Yes I see how you could perceive that as ironic, but the point of it was that the violence dropped primarily because of that ceasefire, not because of the gun ban that went into effect. If you look at the charts on those pages, the IRA was most active during the same exact years as the higher crime rates, and dropped as soon as it declared the ceasefire.

I'm looking for a respectful debate, not personal attacks here. If that was the case I could simply post on craigslist rants and raves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate

In this link you can see all gun related deaths by countries. It is interesting that with the US and Canada being so close and having similar cultures that the US gun related deaths are 5 times higher.

Wrider wrote:Not necessarily. That to me means that they respect each other a whole lot more than people in the US do, which means less violence in general, and much less murder period.

Which is exactly my argument that if either country should have the stricter gun control, it should be the US and not the other way around.

Wrider wrote: According to you, since all guns in those countries are outlawed, there ought to be zero gun violence, correct? Unfortunately that is not the case. It may be old and sound simple, but the saying "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" is very true.

Once again this is not true, outlaws in Japan rarely have guns. You almost never hear of a Yakuza with guns either.

Wrider wrote: Also unfortunate for your argument is the fact that Switzerland has a lower gun crime rate than almost any other country, yet has a full military firearm and ammo for said firearm in almost every civilian house.

Switzerland does not have a low gun crime rate. You do know that Switzerland is a tiny spec of a country with less people than New York City don't you? According to this data, Switzerland had 68 murder by firearm, while UK had 14. Switzerland has a population of less than 8 million while the UK has over 63 million. So you are over thirty eight times more likely to get murdered by firearm in Switzerland than the UK.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... h-firearms

Wrider wrote: How about here on the home front where Houston had 52 gun related murders in 2012, whereas Chicago, which has a whole lot more gun laws and doesn't have the illegal immigration problems, had over 500?

Chicago does not have 100% gun control. Also having gun control in one city and not in bordering cities does absolutely nothing. Houston and Chicago have very different demographics, as well as other huge differences. Using manipulated stats like this proves nothing other than to weaken your argument. Also since when do illegal immigrants have more guns than US citizens?

Wrider wrote: Insulting my intelligence won't get you anywhere. Yes I see how you could perceive that as ironic, but the point of it was that the violence dropped primarily because of that ceasefire, not because of the gun ban that went into effect. If you look at the charts on those pages, the IRA was most active during the same exact years as the higher crime rates, and dropped as soon as it declared the ceasefire.

I don't know where I insulted your intelligence. I have always respected your opinion, I usually read your posts and always liked you. Had I not felt that way, I would not have taken the time and effort to post my views on your thread.

Wrider wrote: I'm looking for a respectful debate, not personal attacks here. If that was the case I could simply post on craigslist rants and raves.

I'm not sure how this debate was disrespectful or involved personal attacks; I don't see it. Sure maybe some snippy remarks from both you and me. That being said, I don't see how you can start a thread on something as controversial and hotly debated topic as this and not be ready to take or give a little heat. I have seen many threads on other forums regarding gun control and this one is the most mild mannered one by a significant margin.

High_Side wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate

In this link you can see all gun related deaths by countries. It is interesting that with the US and Canada being so close and having similar cultures that the US gun related deaths are 5 times higher.

Well certainly the main factor is that the US has far more gun ownership per capita. According to this source, the per capita gun ownership is almost 3x higher, but not 5x. What do you think are the other factors that decrease the gun related death in Canada? Does Canada have tougher laws?

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_g ... dents-2007

High_Side wrote:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... death_rate

In this link you can see all gun related deaths by countries. It is interesting that with the US and Canada being so close and having similar cultures that the US gun related deaths are 5 times higher.

Ummm, I have to point out that many common firearms in the US (such as 3 of the pistols and one of the long guns in my house) are strictly forbidden in Canada, not to mention every one of Canada's guns is registered to the owner (which most 2A supporters in the US would argue is a bad thing), and to be honest, your country has a whole lot more respect for each other than we in the US have, not to mention you don't have to deal with the gang/illegal immigration problems we have. Plus if you look at the breakdown, 6.3 of the 10.2 are suicide. Basically we kill ourselves with guns because we don't feel like doing it a longer/more drawn out way.

Take suicide out of the equation and it goes to:
US: 3.9
Canada: .34
Mexico: 10.4 (or still higher than when you include the 62% of the gun deaths in the US attributed to suicide)

That said, you do bring up a good point about gun control and whether it works or not. Check out Mexico in that list. Total gun ban for private ownership, military and police checkpoints everywhere with them carrying full auto military weapons.

Or check out South Africa. Total gun registry and the rate is 18.5. Take out suicide and it's sitting at 17.

In the US, where they are working to ban all "assault weapons" (a misnomer in and of itself), you are actually 2.3 times as likely (817 vs 351) to be kicked or punched to death than shot with any kind of rifle, either on purpose or on accident. In fact that number ALONE is higher than the total murder rate in the UK (817 vs 724 in 2009).

In Canada the number is even a higher discrepancy, at 817 vs 610.

The fact is that the US is a much more violent country, and in my opinion, the guns are not the problem. I've never shot anyone, I've only aimed at someone once, and it was in defense of my life. All of my guns are either for hunting, protection, or some combination of both.


Hyperr, you posted since I started this reply.

I saw an insult toward intelligence when you were trying to point out irony.

Houston and Chicago definitely have different demographics. Houston has to deal with the immigration issue, a bigger drug problem (with everything coming across the border from Mexico), and just as many gangs as Chicago has. Yet very loose gun laws mean that the people can defend themselves and crime tends to go down in that regard. Not to mention that Chicago did attempt a full handgun ban (struck down).

Illegal immigrants often own guns. Most of those guns are stolen and/or obtained on the black market (occasionally you will get the unscrupulous straw buyer or dealer). Technically speaking, every one of those guns is illegally owned. And if you start checking out violence numbers in Phoenix, LA, TX, etc, you'll see that a good portion of it is done by illegal immigrants or first generation offspring.

As far as Japanese with guns. Private gun ownership is completely banned in Japan. Meaning that anyone killed with a gun was killed by someone who was already illegally in possession of one. 100% outlaws having guns vs citizens having them. My point with the Japanese respecting others is that they don't need to defend themselves from one another nearly as often as someone in the US does. How often do you get cut off, get the finger, or get someone otherwise enacting roadrage toward you? Ask the Japanese and that's fairly uncommon. I prefer to be able to defend myself from someone else who is aggressive toward me without having to rely on fighting skills as a last resort. (I have them, and have never lost a fight, even as a bouncer, but still prefer to have the upper hand if someone comes after me.)

Switzerland DOES have a low gun rate. As a matter of fact 68/8,000,000 comes out to a gun murder rate of .00085%.

As far as that chart you posted. Now go look at total murders per capita. http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_m ... per-capita The US doesn't even make the list of the top 37. Then compare the total US gun murders to the total US population (9369 vs 311,705,000) to get a rate of gun murder per capita of .003%. So basically per 100,000, approximately 3 people will be shot every year.



Anyway it's definitely a heated subject and I'll try to keep that in mind.
Check out this reply and see what you think.

[quote="HYPERR"][quote="High_Side"]What do you think are the other factors that decrease the gun related death in Canada? Does Canada have tougher laws?
People own guns - but it's a lot more restrictive. The rules are so tight here that as a gun owner your gun is locked over here and your ammo is locked over there. If it is a pistol you can basically carry it between your residence and a gun club. Perhaps a lack of opportunity is the answer.

Don't forget that anything along the lines of an AK is banned. Or any handgun with a barrel length of less than 105 cm (4.13 inches). Or anything along the lines of a muzzle brake/flash suppressor. Or an assisted opening knife. Or anything capable of being modified to fire full auto. Or anything with a barrel less than 18 inches. Or anything shorter than 26 inches. Or anything that the government has said is illegal. Or a Taser. Or popular home defense rounds for your shotgun (flechettes). Or nunchaku. Or a shuriken. Or any kind of blade that is carried in a belt. Or anything similar to (but not) an ulu. Or a blowgun. Or tear gas. Or mace.

Want to talk about restricted weapons? That's a whole other list. It includes the AR and any variants thereof.

Many gun control laws are predicated on the false assumption that violence is inherently bad when some violence is clearly good.

An example: a women shoots her rapist dead, this is good violence.

Gun control laws should be structured to maximize good violence while minimizing bad violence and we should evaluate both new and existing gun control laws by this common-sense standard.

It should also be understood that guns have a leveling impact on violence. Please consider that a small women with a gun is not at a great disadvantage to a large man with a gun, but if guns are removed then those who are physically powerful will have an advantage over those who are not. As most violent criminals are younger men who are, on average, physically stronger then most of the rest of the public, gun bans give the advantage to criminals in comparison to their victims who are most often women, children, the frail, the elderly, or anyone else that looks like an easy target.

A basic truth: societies that have a lot of bad violence have a deficiency in good violence.

Good violence can be increased by the government spending more on policing and also by the actions of the public. A women who shoots her rapist dead is not only protecting her own virtue, she is benefiting society as a whole by improving the ratio of good violence to bad violence. When we increase good violence, the initial result will be more total violence, but as bad people are either killed or removed from the public by criminal prosecutions the overall level of violence within a society will also rapidly decline.

Reducing gun violence is a trivial exercise, simply ban all guns, but it is decreasing all violence within a society that is far more problematic and made much more difficult by any law that makes it harder, or impossible, for good people to access guns for self defense.