Total Motorcycle Community Forums

The founding fathers created the framework of the most prosperous nation to ever exist. Slavery is a complex issue that was finally resolved. Let's all praise liberals for making whites slaves, too.

Not going to flame this board. If you want to debate this, let's do it on PM.

spydercanopus wrote:The founding fathers created the framework of the most prosperous nation to ever exist. Slavery is a complex issue that was finally resolved.

Agreed. This is precisely the reason why Abraham Lincoln hated slavery intially.

“I hate it(slavery) because it deprives our republican example of its just influence in the world—enables the enemies of free institutions, with plausibility, to taunt us as hypocrites—causes the real friends of freedom to doubt our sincerity, and especially because it forces so many really good men amongst ourselves into an open war with the very fundamental principles of civil liberty—criticizing the Declaration of Independence, and insisting that there is no right principle of action but self interest.”
Abraham Lincoln

Interesting debate....but I wish the American people & it's various governments respected the freedoms of all nationals too (rendition/ Guantameno)?

Back to helmets .......an experienced biker is more likely to have responsibilities eg children / job / household, than a youngster.

Whilst everyone is free to risk the idea of dying surely it is very selfish to risk permanent brain damage? No helmet = possibly leaving your family or state healthcare to look after a "vegetable" for 30yrs!

We take a risk every time we get on a bike but we should accept some repsonsibility for keeping as safe as we can?

I agree, helmet laws are pretty sensible really.

What most people who claim freedom and rights dont realize is that driving/riding is not really a right but a privilege. If you play american football in a league, you have to wear a helmet. If you play baseball in a league, you have to wear a helmet when you come to bat. You abide by the organization's rules which the vast majority are well intended if you want to play in their league. The possibility of a severe injury is almost inevitable if you crash on a bike, and a guarantee you will be a burden on society when you do get injured. So if you want to play on public roads, you must abide by their rules, which are not only designed to protect you but more importantly minimize the burden you may potentially have on society.

I was just in Houston, Texas for a week and can't believe the riders there don't wear helmets! Some of them were screaming past me on the freeway at 80+ mph with no helmets (and no boots, jackets, etc...)

HYPERR wrote:What most people who claim freedom and rights dont realize is that driving/riding is not really a right but a privilege. If you play american football in a league, you have to wear a helmet. If you play baseball in a league, you have to wear a helmet when you come to bat. You abide by the organization's rules which the vast majority are well intended if you want to play in their league. The possibility of a severe injury is almost inevitable if you crash on a bike, and a guarantee you will be a burden on society when you do get injured. So if you want to play on public roads, you must abide by their rules, which are not only designed to protect you but more importantly minimize the burden you may potentially have on society.

Good points.

This poll surprised me, and I will admit I did not read all the comments before posting this reply. The poll was not wether or not helmets were a good thing, that is without much question. But it surprised me to think that motorcyclists, who clearly represent folks who enjoy the freedom to do something that others consider too dangerous to do, would support laws that force others to do something they may or may not want to do. I almost always wear a helmet, but in a free country it is not the proper role of the government to force me to do something for my own good. Sad that most responders to this poll don't understand what freedom really means. And statements about "being a burden on society" is a dangerous and foolish one since it could equally apply to justify banning motorcycles, guns, skiing, sky diving, football or eating meat, or fatty foods, etc. etc. ad infinitum. I would have thought that riders would be the last group of people to endorse the nanny state mentality of mandatory helmet laws.

Maybe because deep down, we actually give a dodo what happens to our brethren

vito wrote:This poll surprised me, and I will admit I did not read all the comments before posting this reply.

If you are going to question the opposing views, then it would be a good idea to read all the comments before you fire away.

vito wrote:But it surprised me to think that motorcyclists, who clearly represent folks who enjoy the freedom to do something that others consider too dangerous to do

That is a very strange way to look at motorcycling. So you enjoy motorcyling because others consider it too dangerous and that gives you a sense of freedom?

vito wrote:but in a free country it is not the proper role of the government to force me to do something for my own good.

So we should get rid of speed limits, stop signs, traffic lights, double yellow lines, warning signs, guardrails, police, etc etc etc....

vito wrote: Sad that most responders to this poll don't understand what freedom really means.

Ok I'll bite, so I guess we don't; what is freedom then?

vito wrote:And statements about "being a burden on society" is a dangerous and foolish one since it could equally apply to justify banning motorcycles, guns, skiing, sky diving, football or eating meat, or fatty foods, etc. etc. ad infinitum.

Your line of thinking is dangerous. It is the method one uses to try to justify anything that they believe in and using extreme examples that are never likely to happen (unless you live in Myanmar). It is the line of thinking that mistakenly takes a privilege and tries to justify it as a right. It is the line of thinking that thinks of only ME! ME! ME!.

You want to ride your bike on your private land without a helmet and you have the financial means to pay all medical costs if you have a massive head injury, then go ahead. If you are riding on a public road funded by the government and granted the privilege to use those roads with your motorcycle by the government via a motorcycle license then you are going to have to abide by their rules. To use a couple of your examples, if you go skiing, you are going to have to abide by the rules of the resort, if you don't your lift ticket will be taken away. If you play football, you are going to abide by the rules of the organization (and yes that includes wearing a helmet) or you are not going to play.

vito wrote: I would have thought that riders would be the last group of people to endorse the nanny state mentality of mandatory helmet laws.

Well it looks like you may have thought wrong.