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Rolling resistance isn't a big issue for motorcyclists. All you can do is keep your tires properly inflated. To sit around and ponder "what tire pattern has the lowest rolling resistance due to tread pattern is a bit like obsessing over how long your mechanic's fingernails are.

Any good practice discussion would turn to why we practice what we practice. One of the real questions has to be what do we base our decisions on.

Personally I got a Driver's License in 1979. In 1981 I got my Class 1 (semi's) and my Class 4 (motorcycles). In that time I've learned that OTHER USERS tend to be the single greatest hazard to my safety. (Oddly, things like the MAIDS study in Europe bear this out). So, when practicing I work on strategies to avoid hazardous situations and skills that can mitigate those situations. So for me, scanning and situational awareness are important strategies to work on and braking and swerving are paramount skills.

As we say up here: "Expert riders use their expert judgement to avoid using their expert skills."

Why do you practice what you practice? And don't give me that teenager's "I already elaborated that in a prior discussion" bluffin' with language stuff.

What is your rationale for the practice you do?

storysunfolding wrote:

beginner wrote:Talking about practice is worthwhile. Motorcycle instructors should not discourage it.

We don't. However, you post as an expert and from your video's and your posts your skills are so inherently flawed that we don't want other people dying from trying your idiocy

I advocate a lot more time on drills and exercises than most riders do, nothing more, nothing less. I won't concede even the tiniest flaw in that advice. As far as my skills, it's hard to find videos of people with a similar number of hours to mine but based on the little I've seen I think I'm doing okay. If you want to claim differently show evidence, a video. Your opinion is not evidence. In the mean time I try to have a good assessment of what I can and can't do and make rules to preserve my safety margin--staying below 30 mph for example.

storysunfolding wrote:

beginner wrote: Don't operate at a speed higher than you are certain you can do emergency braking in a panic.

Again- we teach the skills to provide precise controlled motions without panicking. If you panic, just kiss your life goodbye.

What happens with practice is the panic reactions become less likely. With some maneuvers getting there takes more practice than a lot of people seem willing to do.

storysunfolding wrote:Beginner, you may misunderstand me and the intentions I have here. If you flip through my posts in this forum and others I guarantee you find plenty of suggestions that people practice. I'm sure a few people here can vouch that they've seen it.

Practice is mentioned occaisionally on motorcycle message boards. It's been reduced to a slogan. It is very rarely discussed.

However, I also encourage students to practice worthwhile exercises and correct technique. At the same time I discourage people wasting their time, becoming complacent, practicing with inherently flawed technique or having deluded fantasies of slipping the rear tire at 10 mph.

I am not one of your students but if you feel like to sharing your knowledge feel free to start any time. I am a person who likes to discuss practice with people who practice. Don't discuss my practice, discuss your practice.

The only at speed practice you claim to do is swerving and quick stops on the road. You spend far too much time on a skills such as figure eights and ignore more important skills such as cornering.

I practice what is relevent to my terrain and what seems to be a logical progression from my current skill level. Where I determine my skills are deficient I make an operational rule to keep me out of a situation where that deficency might be tested outside practice.

You need to sit back and ask yourself "Why is everyone that I'm talking to telling me that I'm wrong?" The right answer isn't that the entire communities at BARF, TMW, Beginnerbikers in addition to Keith Code are wrong

Wrong about what? Please be specific.

I asked Keith Code what's a good size bike (referring to weight) for a rank beginner like me. His answer, a 600cc something-or-other. The rest of his answer was, buy his book.

There was a discussion about practice on beginnerbikers. All my posts in the discussion where deleted--a strange thing to do. I was one of many participants.

I think i have figured it out. Beginner you are no longer practicing, doing figure 8s is what you enjoy to do on your bike. You are trying you justify that enjoyment by saying you are just practicing. There is no need to do that. If that is what you enjoy no one here is going to make fun of you. to each his own. your bike your time. I am glad you enjoy your bike. Welcome to motorcycling.

CaptCrashIdaho wrote:Rolling resistance isn't a big issue for motorcyclists.

When the Dunlop knobbies were replaced with Kenda dual sports the reduction in rolling resistance was remarkable, dramatic. The bike was more drivable off road because of more usable torque in second gear and it was even more noticable in the parking lot. The difference wasn't a whole gear but it approached that. Rolling resistance has become an important criteria.

As we say up here: "Expert riders use their expert judgement to avoid using their expert skills."

How about, expert riders show their expert judgement by practicing their expert skills.

Why do you practice what you practice?

The primary purpose for the bike is transportation around the farm. That means often threading slowly through trees on foot paths just wide enough for a 4 wheeler, that are covered with rocks, roots and holes. I also buzz down drives and logging roads at higher speeds. There are a few photos of a few of my terrians posted earlier. So the emphasis has been on balancing and turning skills--figure 8s, Uturns, 90 degree turns, slow riding, weaves. Improving balance on the bike is going to be a process of years which can be speeded up by practicing challenging turning maneuvers.

I practice braking and swerving frequently, but not as many repetitions as turning maneuvers. It's not that hard to get very good braking from 30 mph. Swerving has gotten to be easy because of all the other turning pracitice. I haven't felt the need yet to push my luck with those by doing them harder and harder in practice. If I get impatient with the 30 mph rule then I 'll have to increase the practice repetitions on braking and swerving.

Tennif Shoe wrote:I think i have figured it out. Beginner you are no longer practicing, doing figure 8s is what you enjoy to do on your bike. You are trying you justify that enjoyment by saying you are just practicing. There is no need to do that. If that is what you enjoy no one here is going to make fun of you. to each his own. your bike your time. I am glad you enjoy your bike. Welcome to motorcycling.

I like to practice as much as riding around but I wouldn't ride a bike at all if I didn't like riding around. I would like to discuss practice with other people who practice. Evenutally I might find a forum where that's possible.

beginner wrote:

Tennif Shoe wrote:I think i have figured it out. Beginner you are no longer practicing, doing figure 8s is what you enjoy to do on your bike. You are trying you justify that enjoyment by saying you are just practicing. There is no need to do that. If that is what you enjoy no one here is going to make fun of you. to each his own. your bike your time. I am glad you enjoy your bike. Welcome to motorcycling.

I like to practice as much as riding around but I wouldn't ride a bike at all if I didn't like riding around. I would like to discuss practice with other people who practice. Evenutally I might find a forum where that's possible.

I think TennifShoe is right. beginner digs his figure 8s. He lives in an area where there is little traffic and...well, I thinik that his traffic evny may be driving him to worry about things (like how we well-traffic endowed types) that he can't really experience except as practice. In figure 8 he's dodging manholes and swerving around minivans, carefully looking around trucks as he enters intersections, AND living he's living the dream.

But TS is right! Simply enjoying it should be enough! I do the occasional wheelie or stoppie? Why? Because traffic data show throttle control and the ability to load and unload the front and the rear is VERY important to accident avoidance...of course the industry shill MSF won't teach these vital skills because of a conspiracy aimed at.......killing us all so we have to buy more motorcycles.....wait.....hold on.....

b-man it's clear you not getting what you want through traditional (read controled by the MSF, who at this moment, are looking at the Google Maps your neighborhood in Michigan! In fact they have been slowly deleting your posts in other forums to try and silence you--who do you THINK pulled your stuff off those boards? Elvis? I wouldn't be surprised if they find your giant 8 and, after getting the grid, come in and pressure the property owner to stop you from further practice!)....

What was I saying? Oh yeah, it's clear that you're not getting what you want in these forums--I would like to suggest an appropriate practice (by definition: "the action or process of performing or doing something: to put a scheme into practice; the shameful practices of a blackmailer.") you should create a forum. It's terribly clear that Gymkhana (got you banned elsewhere) and continued Practice are really important to you.

However, your unique views bring you nothing but grief out here in the general practice world of motorcycling. It's been my practice to search out like minded people and gather together in groups to discuss and chat.

Practicing that sort of behaviour could create the kind of companionship you so long for. I practice that sort of practice practically all the time--it's part of the practice I am building.

I would be curious to join and see what happens.




(Did I practice enough in that post?)

CaptCrashIdaho wrote:I think TennifShoe is right. beginner digs his figure 8s.

No dispute there.

He lives in an area where there is little traffic

Empty roads is motorcycle paradise.

In figure 8 he's dodging manholes and swerving around minivans, carefully looking around trucks as he enters intersections, AND living he's living the dream.

Traffic is a bad dream. You can have it.

But TS is right! Simply enjoying it should be enough!

If there were good discussions of practice issues may be I'd learn faster.

it's clear that you're not getting what you want in these forums

No worries. I'm leaning, just not so much on the topic I originally had in mind.

you should create a forum.

If I started right now, without hurrying, I could have a message forum, complete with domain name, up and working in 30 minutes, plus a few more hours for tweaking the settings. Cost per year, about $10. If I thought that could succeed I'd be glad to do it.

It's better to find a practice conversation and join it or start one on an existing forum.

It's terribly clear that Gymkhana (got you banned elsewhere).

Gymkhana? Is that like Goldfinger on a chopper?

However, your unique views bring you nothing but grief out here in the general practice world of motorcycling.

Grief? The conversation is relaxing.

It's been my practice to search out like minded people and gather together in groups to discuss and chat.

For that to happen the peole who aren't "like minded" need to leave the conversation alone.

beginner wrote:Gymkhana? Is that like Goldfinger on a chopper?

Ahhhh....nothing better than stabbing a guy with his own knife:

Originally Posted by beginner (on BBO)
I like this one is because it shows beginner gymkhana riders instead of experts and it shows what happens when they dump their bikes. It looks like FUN.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRbZYOW4wmU

Then I went to www.youtube.com/motormanmagoo and I found these in MotormanMagoo's Favorites:

VFR400 Gymkhana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTO2s7wy ... annel_page

AND Gymkhana by SACHS MadAss http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ELmrp9D ... annel_page

As well as several other gymkhana videos that had kanji characters I can't replicate...

OR maybe you forgot your comments (when your handle was Charlie3) on AllThingsMotorcycle like: "The handling skills I admire most are demonstrated by the Japanese gymkhana riders. Observe the use of counter balancing by this rider. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTO2s7wyrFs" OR "Maybe if I get to the point where I'm working on those impossibly tight gymkhana style turns I'll need to fiddle with the rear brake to do them, time will tell."

See, this is where you shoot yourself in the foot. You can't leave a trail like you do and then figure it's not going to be backtracked. Why be embarasssed by a fascination with Gymkhana--it looks really cool! It's fun to watch and probably a blast to ride. Embrace yourself dude...just dig it! It's OK!

CaptCrashIdaho wrote:See, this is where you shoot yourself in the foot. You can't leave a trail like you do and then figure it's not going to be backtracked. Why be embarasssed by a fascination with Gymkhana--it looks really cool! It's fun to watch and probably a blast to ride. Embrace yourself dude...just dig it! It's OK!

I thought you might be referring to a person with the user name 'gymkhana.' Of course i know asian style gymkhana riding. I admire it and bring it up when it's appropriate. Wasn't I the one who brought it to your attention in another practice discussion?

I've read a lot of discussions of countersteering. Here's a try at explaining it to myself.

To establish a turn I do 2 things, lean the bike by countersteering and/or counter balancing, then, to initiate the turn, the front wheel needs to be pointed in the direction of the turn--with one caveat, the amount of slip in the rear tire. There is always some slip. The more there is the less the front wheel needs to be turned.

I use countersteering to mean a technique for influencing the lean of the bike with with the steering bar and counterbalancing to mean a technique for inlfuencing the lean of the bike by shifting the rider's upper body weight.

I counter steer by pushing horizontally on one end of the steering bar. That leans the bike by a steering the front wheel out from under the bike. If I push downward on one end of the steering bar that leans the bike by a shifting my body weight in the opposite direction the bike leans--counter balancing. Putting more weight on a peg is also counter balancing because it pushes the upper body weight to the opposite side from the peg. Body weight can also be shifted by leaning from your midsection and/or by moving your bottom off the center of the seat to one side.

As a practical matter the bike is always leaned in the direction of the turn, even at the slowest speeds. It's possible to turn the bike when it's leaning away from the turn but the rider will need to shift upper body weight to the inside of the turn to compensate--doable on a light weight bike at a very slow speeds but clumsy and difficult. At higher speeds the rider would not have enough body mass to compensate for a bike that's leaning away from the direction of a turn.

My understanding in practice is countersteering and/or counterbalancing cause the lean, not the turn. A steering input in the front and/or the rear is still needed before there is a turn.

There's one more caveat in my view of turning. Once a turn is established it's possible to increase or decrease the rate of turn by changing only the lean angle of the bike, with no movement of the steering bar. The tighter the turn the easier it is to feel that. The reason, I believe, is because changing the lean angle of the bike, when the wheel is turned, moves the front tire's contact patch forward or backward along the tire.

If you think I've got any of this wrong feel free to disagree.

Here is a recent video of a group practice in America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOHHUQ4LzHc
Compare with this group practice in Japan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4lRGpM9Rrw&NR=1

The Asians have to be laughing at us.