Total Motorcycle Community Forums

Looks like a gymkhana school. I asked one of our members in Japan to confirm.

When we start up in march I'll get you some film of the Military sportbike course to see what you think.

beginner wrote:Here is a recent video of a group practice in America.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZOHHUQ4LzHc
Compare with this group practice in Japan.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4lRGpM9Rrw&NR=1

The Asians have to be laughing at us.

Ummmmm. IF you had taken a class you would have recognized that the "American" video was pics and vid taken at an Experienced Rider Course by the MSF...

I think you're jacking your own thread. If you want to talk countersteering--start a countersteering thread. If you want to talk about how American Training differs from Asian Competition then start a new thread.

This thread is about how to ride a perfect figure 8.

I think that horse is dead.

***MODS*** You want to help our boy out here?

storysunfolding wrote:Looks like a gymkhana school. I asked one of our members in Japan to confirm.

Please ask your member in Japan if there are any instructional books or videos translated to English for gymkhana. I think American riders would get involved in that with a little encouragement.

When we start up in march I'll get you some film of the Military sportbike course to see what you think.

I've read that a hand book for that course was created. Do you know how to obtain it? I've been looking.

There are news stories that the military is concered about motorcycle crashes of their soldiers. It's costing them too many soldiers and millions of dollars.

They are in the business of training people to work effectively in scary situations. If motorcycles were an important battlefield system they'd be unsatisfied with the accident rate. They should take the same approach to motorcycles as all the other equipment they operate. If they implimented what they learned it could change the motorcycle culture in America for the better.

For one thing they would recommend more of something that are famous for, drills and exercises.

CaptCrashIdaho wrote:I think you're jacking your own thread. If you want to talk countersteering--start a countersteering thread. If you want to talk about how American Training differs from Asian Competition then start a new thread.

Those two videos looked like practice sessions. What was striking was the difference in skill level. One group practices regularly, the other group, not so much.

This thread is about how to ride a perfect figure 8.

Figure 8s are a turning exercise. What's more relevent to turning than countersteering?

99% of what I know about countersteering came from practice, turning and turning and turning and turning some more.

It was in practice I learned that countersteering doesn't turn the bike, it leans the bike. I can also lean the bike by counter balancing. No matter what technique I use to lean the bike there still has to be a steering input, the front wheel has to be turned in, tracking in, the direction of the turn.

A lot of people say counter steering turns the bike. That is confusing because it may give the impression that the bike can turn when the front wheel is turned away from the direction of the turn. That only happens if the rear wheel is slipping enought to require that much correction.

beginner wrote:

CaptCrashIdaho wrote:Rolling resistance isn't a big issue for motorcyclists.

When the Dunlop knobbies were replaced with Kenda dual sports the reduction in rolling resistance was remarkable, dramatic. The bike was more drivable off road because of more usable torque in second gear and it was even more noticable in the parking lot. The difference wasn't a whole gear but it approached that. Rolling resistance has become an important criteria.

Are you saying that you removed Dunlops, put on Kendas and it increased your torque?

Most likely the axle nuts were tightened too tight, loading the wheel bearing. When you put on the bargain bin Kendas the axle nuts were torqued correctly.

beginner wrote:I think American riders would get involved in that with a little encouragement.

They already have them over here... You really need to get out more

I've read that a hand book for that course was created. Do you know how to obtain it?

Yeah, pick up The pace by nick ienatsch. He helped design the course... unoficially I'd pick up lee parks total control as well

There are news stories that the military is concered about motorcycle crashes of their soldiers. It's costing them too many soldiers and millions of dollars.They should take the same approach to motorcycles as all the other equipment they operate. If they implimented what they learned it could change the motorcycle culture in America for the better.

For one thing they would recommend more of something that are famous for, drills and exercises.

Man oh man. The military's answer was more instruction, hence the MSRC, the keith code military school and the up and coming lee parks program for the military.

I guess the people known for drills and exercises know what they are talking about.

Johnj wrote:Are you saying that you removed Dunlops, put on Kendas and it increased your torque? Most likely the axle nuts were tightened too tight, loading the wheel bearing. When you put on the bargain bin Kendas the axle nuts were torqued correctly.

The wheels turned freely before the tires were replaced. If the bearing spacer on the inner races was crushed by overtightening the problem would still be there with the new tires. The difference in rolling resistance between the Dunlop knobbies and Kenda dual sport tires is dramatic. The practical effect of that is the feeling of more usable torque on the ground. There is dramatically more pull in second gear at lower RPM's. That improves drivability in the woods, less downshifting. In the parking lot it's also nice to have less load on the engine at slow speeds in second gear. Most of my turning practice is in second gear. I'm willing to give up some traction off-road if necessary to keep that lower rolling resistance. My only gripe with the Kendas is they have inferior front wheel turning traction on pavement compared to the expensive knobbies. I assumed it would be better. The back wheel is also more slippery on pavement but I don't mind that, it's fun.

storysunfolding wrote:

beginner wrote:I think American riders would get involved in that with a little encouragement.

They already have them over here... You really need to get out more

I've looked for evidence of japanese style gymkhana in america. Do you have a link to a video or a web site about that?

Man oh man. The military's answer was more instruction, hence the MSRC, the keith code military school and the up and coming lee parks program for the military. I guess the people known for drills and exercises know what they are talking about.

We'll have to wait and see what's in the new sport bike handbook.

We'll have to wait and see what's in the new sport bike handbook.

I'm an instructor for it. Feel free to come down to Quantico Va and give it a try

beginner wrote:The wheels turned freely before the tires were replaced. If the bearing spacer on the inner races was crushed by overtightening the problem would still be there with the new tires.

ROTFL!!!

Let me see if I understand what you're saying...

If you over torque the axles enough to to have an effect on the wheel rolling freely, then that effect will still be there when you back off the nut? And that the bearing spacers will be crushed?

You may want to test that theory by practicing removing and reinstalling a few wheels. If you've only done it once, how can you be so sure? IMHO, it would take at least several dozen times to get a real feel for what's actually going on.

LDS wrote:

beginner wrote:The wheels turned freely before the tires were replaced. If the bearing spacer on the inner races was crushed by overtightening the problem would still be there with the new tires.

ROTFL!!! Let me see if I understand what you're saying... If you over torque the axles enough to to have an effect on the wheel rolling freely, then that effect will still be there when you back off the nut? And that the bearing spacers will be crushed? You may want to test that theory by practicing removing and reinstalling a few wheels. If you've only done it once, how can you be so sure? IMHO, it would take at least several dozen times to get a real feel for what's actually going on.

If there was enough bearing friction to cause so much difference in rolling resistance the bearings would have failed long before the tires were replaced. Tires can be different in rolling resistence depending on tread pattern, rubber compound, tire pressure, etc. May be the differences are smaller on street tires. For the first hundred hours of practice the tires wore very little. After that the wear on the side knobs in front increased dramatically. If I keep up the same pattern as last year the front tire will get replaced every 6 weeks. The rear will probably last all season. I may try one more Kenda in front and if there's no joy I'll try something else. Here is what the original front tire looked like a couple of weeks before I replaced it.

storysunfolding wrote:

We'll have to wait and see what's in the new sport bike handbook.

I'm an instructor for it. Feel free to come down to Quantico Va and give it a try

I'd like to see what's in the booklet. That's where the priorities are set.

I read somewhere there are 17 maneuvers in your beginner course. It would be a service to your students to put up some youtube videos showing them performed to perfection by a highly skilled rider who has practiced them a lot. Then your students could look at those to be reminded about how far they need to progress after the course.

I'm surprised nobody has quibbled with my countersteering description.