Excellent figure 8

[MrShake]

Youtube offers you no feedback, thats the reason its not a valid teacher

Youtube is not a teacher, it is a place to watch the riding of others.

Who is your teacher?

If I am riding down the road on the way to work and I "Lean" to the right, this shifting my weight. My bike will lean to the right.

If you shift upper body weight to the right the bike will lean to the left.

Not True

I add to that a counter steer of pushing on the right handlebar to aid in that lean.

Pushing foward on the right grip leans the bike to the right (actually 'rolls' the bike would be more correct) and counter act the earlier counter balance that leaned the bike to the left.

Why would you have counter balanced before your couter steered?

It (counter balancing) is NOT a method of initiating a turn, but a control of lean maneuver.

Isn't that what I've beens saying all along? Counter balancing leans the bike. It does not, by itself, turn the bike. The same is true for counter steering.

Incorrect, Counter Balancing does not lean a bike. Counter Balancing controls the amount of lean, it does not initiate the lean or turn

Your trying to apply advanced techniques to simple, every day events.

Understanding is what's hard.

Correct, you seem to have a hard time understanding

You like to believe your experiencing rear tire slip at slow speeds.

Everybody who turns a motorcyle experiences rear tire slip. Not everybody is aware of it.

Incorrect - Wrong - What other words can I use to express that you are not right?

You like to believe a tire change is going to give you more torque.

Different tires have more or less rolling resistance. Lower rolling resistance can make a difference in the amount of torque available for acceleration.

Noticeable at sub 30mph... again wrong

You like to believe that advanced counterbalancing is necessary for a simple turn.

You would need to define "advanced" counterbalancing. Sometimes I lean the bike by counter steering but mosty by counter balancing. Other people may lean the bike mostly by counter steering.

You do not lean your bike by counter balancing, thats now how a bike leans. The deffinition of Counter Balance is to offset the balance point you currently have. So, you would have to lean the bike and THEN counter balance. This is nessicary at low speeds or in tight turns, but you counter balance to ofset the lean you do by countersteering. You are very confused on this point and if a true beginning rider were to take what you say as truth, they would be in a world of trouble!

But practice when done incorrectly is only going to get you hurt or worse when you get into a bad situation and react badly due to bad foundational technique.

I managed at least 150 hours of PLP last season. It was worth all the time spent. I don't agree with advising people they shouldn't practice because they might do it wrong. If you are going to say that you should say people should not ride at all because they might do it wrong.

STOP PUTTING WORDS INTO MY MOUTH. Its not only rude, but it is tantamount to lying!
I don't particularly care if you agree with advising people not to practice incorrectly. The truth stands that if you ingrain the wrong behaviors in practice, then you will use the wrong behaviors in a real-life situation. Hence, practicing the wrong thing is a safety issue.
I never said people should not ride because they might do it wrong. The reverse is true.. I tell people they should ride after getting basic instruction so that they practice correctly.

Honestly beginner, I think you just need to go away before you get someone hurt with your bad advice!

[beginner]

Who is your teacher?

You could ask anyone that question. For three days someone can have a teacher. When the course is finished, no more teacher. You are back to teaching yourself.

Honestly beginner, I think you just need to go away before you get someone hurt with your bad advice!

My advice, my only advice, is to start on a small bike (less than 280 pounds) and do drills and exercises for 50% of your riding time until you are certain you can maneuver your bike in emergency situations at least as well as your car.

This discussion at the moment is about understanding turning, not about advice. Silencing people because you don't think they understand something or disagree with you sends the wrong message to people who are trying to learn.

[ofblong]

sorry but the moment I start to turn my bike I begin driving it which in turn will cause me to go into a tree on the side of the road.

[LDS]

Who is your teacher?

You could ask anyone that question. For three days someone can have a teacher. When the course is finished, no more teacher. You are back to teaching yourself.

Honestly beginner, I think you just need to go away before you get someone hurt with your bad advice!

My advice, my only advice, is to start on a small bike (less than 280 pounds) and do drills and exercises for 50% of your riding time until you are certain you can maneuver your bike in emergency situations at least as well as your car.

This discussion at the moment is about understanding turning, not about advice. Silencing people because you don't think they understand something or disagree with you sends the wrong message to people who are trying to learn.

Dude, I've never tried to silence you. I've even argued against banning you with moderators of other boards. IMHO, you're not unreachable or unteachable, but you could definitely teach stubbornness at a school for mules.

Here's the deal - you make up terms and meanings for words, then have difficulty understanding why it seems like everyone disagrees with you and tells you you're wrong.

IMHO, the reason you're confused counterbalancing is because when you do it, you're moving your weight at least partially with your hands and arms. That causes you to press on the steering bar (steering bar is beginner's term for handlebar, kind of like the steering leashes used on a horse) on the opposite side. That is what is actually effecting the steering input.

The next time you ride, try counterbalancing, but relax your arms completely and transfer your weight using only the muscles in your legs. The results may be somewhat surprising to you. If you're going to move around on the bike, you need to practice doing it properly.

[TEvo]

:::
You could ask anyone that question. For three days someone can have a teacher. When the course is finished, no more teacher. You are back to teaching yourself.
:::

This statement is incorrect. After the course, you would have gained knowledge, received feedback and now have additional perspective to make further progress.

[MrShake]

Who is your teacher?

You could ask anyone that question. For three days someone can have a teacher. When the course is finished, no more teacher. You are back to teaching yourself.

Honestly beginner, I think you just need to go away before you get someone hurt with your bad advice!

My advice, my only advice, is to start on a small bike (less than 280 pounds) and do drills and exercises for 50% of your riding time until you are certain you can maneuver your bike in emergency situations at least as well as your car.

This discussion at the moment is about understanding turning, not about advice. Silencing people because you don't think they understand something or disagree with you sends the wrong message to people who are trying to learn.

I guess since you only responded to these two things.. you concede that we are all correct about the rest?

[CaptCrashIdaho]

New Riders: If you're interested in learning the art and science of turning motorcycles and you've made it this far? Good for you, you're a bit of a glutton for punishment.

NOW, as you've read we have several dedicated, trained, certified professionals working with a very....entrenched beginner. Things to learn so far are:

1. Get some training.
2. Learn the vocabulary. If you're talking about countersteering and instead meaning counterbalancing there's not a lot we can do to help you.
3. Don't misinterpet what you're feeling! A low tire will slow down steering and can make a motorcycle unstable--which you might mistake for the tires slipping.
4. Be coachable. Be willing to listen. Don't assume you're right because you want to be. Look for a community consensus. Be willing to read from the best and listen to the professional voices.
5. This ain't the first rodeo. People have been riding for almost a century. The physics just can't change, they can be manipulated but not changed. Assuming that what you WANT or THINK is happening can be dangerous.
6. Be licensed. Be insured. Be careful.

[RhadamYgg]

Figure it out the CIA way. Bike at the top of the circle, pause, measure how long the bike is as a ratio to the circle, find out the length of the bike--PRESTO!

I'm guessing 20ft is about right.

Wayyy too much work for me. It'd be fun if I was in to that type of thing. I'll accept 20 ft, though, at least I can work with that and some sidewalk chalk.

RhadamYgg

[Lion_Lady]

I've read that a hand book for that course was created. Do you know how to obtain it? I've been looking.

There are news stories that the military is concered about motorcycle crashes of their soldiers. It's costing them too many soldiers and millions of dollars.

They are in the business of training people to work effectively in scary situations. If motorcycles were an important battlefield system they'd be unsatisfied with the accident rate. They should take the same approach to motorcycles as all the other equipment they operate. If they implimented what they learned it could change the motorcycle culture in America for the better.

For one thing they would recommend more of something that are famous for, drills and exercises.

Actually, the MSBC does not include extensive drills as part of the course.

It is a step beyond anything previously offered. Any "handbook" created for the course, is not for students, but for the instructors. Acknowledging that most students don't open their classroom materials again, once they've completed the class.

The military seems to have acknowledged that soldiers, particularly Iraq vets, aren't interested in "wasting" time with slow speed, beginner-type drills or instruction in friction zone, etc. (Think on it: For a soldier who has survived 12+ months of constant life-threatening danger in Iraq, mentally they feel invincible and capable of anything.)

Regardless of prior riding experience (or lack thereof) they don't sign up to take the BRC - just buy the coolest/fastest/biggest motorcycle that catches their eye and figure out how to ride themselves. Unfortunately, they too often end up wrapped around guard rails, or telephone poles.

P

[beginner]

you could definitely teach stubbornness at a school for mules.

I'm stubborn until I understand and then I'll defend what I understand until I understand differently--learning.

Here's the deal - you make up terms and meanings for words, then have difficulty understanding why it seems like everyone disagrees with you and tells you you're wrong.

Understanding a disagreement is part of the process of learning. If I call it a steering bar instead of a handle bar everyone knows what I'm taking about. When there is the slightest possibility of being misunderstood about the definition of a word I'll give my definition. I'm searching for more rigorous definitions of counter balance and counter steer that I can agree with and may be others will too.

IMHO, the reason you're confused [about] counterbalancing

I might be confused or I might understand but not making myself clear.

is because when you do it, you're moving your weight at least partially with your hands and arms. That causes you to press on the steering bar (steering bar is beginner's term for handlebar, kind of like the steering leashes used on a horse) on the opposite side. That is what is actually effecting the steering input.

What you are describing is shifting body weight to one side by pushing down on the steering bar. Another way is pushing on a peg. Then there's griping the tank and leaning from your midsecion. There's also moving your bottom to one side of the saddle. It's all the same thing, shifting upper body weight to one side so the bike will lean the opposite way.

The next time you ride, try counterbalancing, but relax your arms completely and transfer your weight using only the muscles in your legs. The results may be somewhat surprising to you. If you're going to move around on the bike, you need to practice doing it properly.

I think it was August when I noticed pushing down on a grip as a way of shifting body weight. I don't do that because it makes steering less accurate. I try to use the tank as the leverage point instead of hands on the grips or feet on the pegs.