Excellent figure 8

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Beginner--the "Steering Bar" is your way of saying "Handlebar"? I think you'll find you get further with better results to use the universal term rather than using a term that....frankly.....no one else uses.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

OH and remember, don't over think things--don't make it more complicated than it has to be!

Example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mKbnVKdix8

[LDS]

I think it was August when I noticed pushing down on a grip as a way of shifting body weight. I don't do that because it makes steering less accurate.

Good, because that is extremely poor, incorrect and potentially dangerous technique.

You should practice only using steering inputs for steering inputs. Practice isolating all body movements from steering inputs.

Watch some roadracing videos. You'll see racers hang waaaay off the inside of the motorcycle. They move into those positions without introducing steering inputs. It's something we practice every time we get on the track.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Your "pushing down" on the bar probably countersteers...you push down and the bar moves away from the force...

[Nibblet99]

Hmm, this seems as good a point as any to lock this thread on, as I believe it has run it's course. After 13 pages, I can't see this going anywhere constructive.

Feel free to PM me if you disagree though

New Riders: If you're interested in learning the art and science of turning motorcycles and you've made it this far? Good for you, you're a bit of a glutton for punishment.

Things to learn so far are:

1. Get some training.
2. Learn the vocabulary. If you're talking about countersteering and instead meaning counterbalancing there's not a lot we can do to help you.
3. Don't misinterpet what you're feeling! A low tire will slow down steering and can make a motorcycle unstable--which you might mistake for the tires slipping.
4. Be coachable. Be willing to listen. Don't assume you're right because you want to be. Look for a community consensus. Be willing to read from the best and listen to the professional voices.
5. This ain't the first rodeo. People have been riding for almost a century. The physics just can't change, they can be manipulated but not changed. Assuming that what you WANT or THINK is happening can be dangerous.
6. Be licensed. Be insured. Be careful.

[beginner]

You should practice only using steering inputs for steering inputs.

You’ll need to explain what you mean by that. One of the reasons I use the term steering bar is to remind myself that steering and turning are not the same thing. In a car it’s called a steering wheel, not a turning wheel.

Practice isolating all body movements from steering inputs.

"isolating all body movements from steering inputs" is impossible unless the rider's upper body is rigid and bolted to the seat. I rode that way for several months, turing was stiff, wooden. I looked like Mr. Magoo on the bike.

I've seen the term 'loosely couple masses' to describe the relationship between the rider's upper body and the bike. The rider's upper body influences the motion of the bike and the motion of the bike influences the rider’s upper body all the time. It is the most important thing I figured out in the parking lot last season. I missed it for a while because I was stuck on the term "counter balancing" used to mean a technique for maneuvering bikes at slow speed in parking lots. The moment I started using my upper body as a control input, my ability to turn the bike improved dramatically in all situations.

racers hang waaaay off the inside of the motorcycle.

The effect of that is to reduce the lean angle of the bike in turns. That also changes how far the wheel is turned for a given curve and speed.

They move into those positions without introducing steering inputs.

"Move into those positions" may or may not mean using upper body mass to influence the lean of the bike. In the BS bike video the rider moves around on the bike without ever moving his body mass out of line with the bike. That's why the bike never leans. When I change the lean angle of the bike by shifting upper body weight to the side that effects direction unless there is a steering change.

Experiment. Go straight at about 5-7 mph. Shift body weight noticeably to the right until the bike leans noticeably to the left but keep the path straight. To do that you'll have to turn the front wheel noticeably to the right. Then you'll be simultaneously "counter balancing" and "counter steering" to the right but going straight.

[ofblong]

Hmm, this seems as good a point as any to lock this thread on, as I believe it has run it's course. After 13 pages, I can't see this going anywhere constructive.

Feel free to PM me if you disagree though

New Riders: If you're interested in learning the art and science of turning motorcycles and you've made it this far? Good for you, you're a bit of a glutton for punishment.

Things to learn so far are:

1. Get some training.
2. Learn the vocabulary. If you're talking about countersteering and instead meaning counterbalancing there's not a lot we can do to help you.
3. Don't misinterpet what you're feeling! A low tire will slow down steering and can make a motorcycle unstable--which you might mistake for the tires slipping.
4. Be coachable. Be willing to listen. Don't assume you're right because you want to be. Look for a community consensus. Be willing to read from the best and listen to the professional voices.
5. This ain't the first rodeo. People have been riding for almost a century. The physics just can't change, they can be manipulated but not changed. Assuming that what you WANT or THINK is happening can be dangerous.
6. Be licensed. Be insured. Be careful.

how come its not closed yet?

[beginner]

Hmm, this seems as good a point as any to lock this thread on, as I believe it has run it's course. After 13 pages, I can't see this going anywhere constructive. Feel free to PM me if you disagree though

Adults are having a polite discussion, on topics of mutual interest, that are related to motorcycles.

Another experiment.

Ride straight ahead at 5-7 mph in an area where the bike can turn. Increase weight on the left peg. The bike will lean to the left. Put weight on the peg again only this time with your mid section tight. The bike won't lean. Instead your bottom will get lighter in the seat or lift out of the seat supported on your left leg. Similarly if you push down on the left grip the bike will lean left but if you tighten your midsection and push down on the grip the bike won't lean.

What this should demonstrate is that "weighting a peg" is just counter balancing.

[CaptCrashIdaho]

Experiment. Go straight at about 5-7 mph. Shift body weight noticeably to the right until the bike leans noticeably to the left but keep the path straight. To do that you'll have to turn the front wheel noticeably to the right. Then you'll be simultaneously "counter balancing" and "counter steering" to the right but going straight.

New Riders: This is an excellent example of misinterpeting inputs. In the above situation, as you shift your weight to the right you PUSH on the LEFT hand grip, giving a COUNTERSTEER input to the motorcycle. As the front tire deflects to the RIGHT the motorcycle leans LEFT. (If you're coming from dirt bikes, you'll realize you're probably PULLING on the right at the same time, which has the same result--a right countersteer, leaning the bike left).

[beginner]

Experiment. Go straight at about 5-7 mph. Shift body weight noticeably to the right until the bike leans noticeably to the left but keep the path straight. To do that you'll have to turn the front wheel noticeably to the right. Then you'll be simultaneously "counter balancing" and "counter steering" to the right but going straight.

New Riders: This is an excellent example of misinterpeting inputs. In the above situation, as you shift your weight to the right you PUSH on the LEFT hand grip, giving a COUNTERSTEER input to the motorcycle. As the front tire deflects to the RIGHT the motorcycle leans LEFT. (If you're coming from dirt bikes, you'll realize you're probably PULLING on the right at the same time, which has the same result--a right countersteer, leaning the bike left).

It's called an experiement because it's repeatable. You can go try it for yourself and see what happens. Perhaps if I restate it you'll get what I'm talking about.

Ride 5-7 mph on a straight path. Shift your upper body noticeably to the right until the bike leans noticeably to the left. To keep a straight path you have to push forward on the left grip to "counter steer" the front wheel to the right, the same direction your body is leaning. At that point your upper body will be "counter balanced" to the right, the front wheel will be 'counter steered" to the right, the bike will be leaning to the left, and on a straight path.