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Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 4:53 am
by KingRobb
Loonette wrote:Not sure if I want to step into this, but I'll take my chances.
1. IN A HUGE EFFORT AS TO NOT APPEAR THAT I'M TAKING SIDES, I feel I need to make one point. As I've mentioned in the past, statistics always rub me the wrong way. They are rarely representative of the real world. I would imagine that the reason we don't find a lot of statistics on children being involved in motorcycle crashes/injuries/deaths would be because very few children are actually on the back of bikes. Think about it - you might see a kid once in awhile, but compared to how many adults... If the motorcyclists who were involved in crashes (and the rate of crashes rises with the rise of the number of riders) did have a child on the back, then I think it's fair to say that the child would also incur some sort of injury. In my 3 1/2 years of riding, I think I've spotted maybe less than 10 child passengers on bikes - compared to the thousands of adult riders. However, more than 1/2 of the bicycles I see on the road are being operated my children. Just a thought.
Now then... for those of you without kids, you have no idea how heart wrenching it can be to make decisions on behalf of someone else. There are decisions that must be made, and they are not pleasant. We did not vaccinate our kids, nor did we circumcise our son, and to this day people still will ask of us "don't you realize what risks you've created for your child?". Those decisions had to be made at the time, and so we did our research (lots and lots of research - it's overwhelming) and made the decisions that we felt in our heart were the best.
I did not have my daughter's ears pierced at birth. It's popular to do so, but my feeling was... it's cosmetic, and if she wants to have it done, she can ask for it. She asked when she was five years old, so off we went, and the fact that she chose to have it done made it that more special of a "rite of passage" for her (and for me as well).
Being a passenger on a motorcycle is not something that I must choose for my kids. We don't encourage them to ride, but we have mentioned to them that we think it would be fun to go on family rides together someday. Since they do not show a burning desire to ride, we do not push the issue.
If one of them were to ask to go for a ride, yes, we would do it. The same way that we weigh out risk in our life is the same way we teach our kids to weigh out risks in their lives. Now that our kids are starting to be more independent, it really can be nerve shattering. If you become focused on all the "what ifs" out there, it could be paralyzing.
As for the age thing... for me my kids would have to be old enough (9 or 10) for me to believe that they can fully understand "risks". I suppose that that age can vary from child to child. At this point (our kids are 9 & 11), if they really wanted to go for a ride, we would gear them up, practice what they've already heard us talk about to them, and then go. If something bad happened, it would kill me inside - but to no more or no less of a degree than if they were to suffer from any of life's many other risks.
Loonette
This teaching about responsible decision making is strange....do tell more.
Actually kudos to you and the old man loonette....your children will undoubtably do well in this world.
Posted: Mon May 14, 2007 8:38 am
by ofblong
very good post loonette. I gave my son rides because he asked me and I felt he was ready. My next child keeps asking but I continually tell him no that he has to grow taller before he can ride. I also explain to him why everytime (not wanting to get hurt not big enough to be able to properly hold on etc etc).
*edit my oldest also asked me to give him a ride to school today. I told him no especially since I had been up for over 24 hours straight and I explained the consequences of being tired etc etc to him as well.
Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 11:37 am
by adrielm
My average speed around town is in the neighborhood of 60-70km/h. Think for a second about the difference between you going down and your kid going down at that speed. Even with properly fitted, good equipment, they're coming out of that kind of accident with serious injuries. Add to that, the only kids with decent equipment are going to be the ones who dirtbike. Of the very few kids I've seen on the back of motorbikes around Edmonton, none of them had any equipment other than a helmet.
In between the talk of more responsible driving, other people are talking about doing wheelies, ripping down the road at full acceleration, etc, so it's hard to take the arguments given very seriously. This isn't about teaching your kids to be sheep, this is about their bodies not being able to take a typical, medium speed crash. They bounce good, but not that good!
Then again, plenty of parents have swimming pools and don't teach their kids how to swim!
Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 12:57 pm
by scan
If you want to, you can gear up your kids pretty good. In another thread talking about kids gear, someone listed a site that sells road gear for kids as young as 5 years old. So I don't think it is impossible to gear up children properly. My opinion with my kids is the same as without my kids- there is a calculated risk, but most motorcycle accidents can be avoided. Not that most motorcycle accidents are the fault of the rider, but most accidents can be averted by safe scanning. Some will disagree, and I hope I'm not proven wrong. In any case, I'm sure there is a possability that an accident out of my control could happen, and if my kid is on the bike, I will make sure they are protected the best I can.
Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:38 pm
by RiderzRagzGuy
In case anyone is intersted you can get a Child Riding Belt at
(Sorry had to kill commerical ad link- Admin)
They are available in two sizes (Adult rider waist sizes) Regular and Large.
My wife and me have been using these belts to take our Son since he was 19 months (5 years now) and our daughter since she was 2 1/2 years old on many fun and enjoyable rides. We each ride our own bikes and we can each take a child to go on "family rides" around the town and enjoy it together.
Although this Riding belt idea may not appeal to everyone, I encourage anyone who is interested to check it out.
We did and are glad we did, so glad in fact we now sell these belts!
Thanks for allowing me add to this forum.
Have a great day & ride safe!
Posted: Tue May 15, 2007 5:57 pm
by ofblong
adrielmichaud wrote:My average speed around town is in the neighborhood of 60-70km/h. Think for a second about the difference between you going down and your kid going down at that speed. Even with properly fitted, good equipment, they're coming out of that kind of accident with serious injuries. Add to that, the only kids with decent equipment are going to be the ones who dirtbike. Of the very few kids I've seen on the back of motorbikes around Edmonton, none of them had any equipment other than a helmet.
thats a pretty poor assumption about how "everyone" does it. My kid has more good equipment on him than I do. Matter of fact he hates wearing it cause it doesnt "feel" good. I tell him either he wears it cause it "dont feel good" or he doesnt ride.
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 5:59 am
by adrielm
scan: I've got to agree with you mostly. A geared-up kid with a careful parent should make for a low-ish risk. One of my points was that you're few and far between.
ofblong: My assumption, and it is an assumption, that most parents just throw a helmet on their kid was anecdotal and I said as such. I wasn't disproving that some parents gear their kids up, I was implying that they must be a minority in Edmonton.
Posted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:47 am
by ofblong
adrielmichaud wrote:scan: I've got to agree with you mostly. A geared-up kid with a careful parent should make for a low-ish risk. One of my points was that you're few and far between.
ofblong: My assumption, and it is an assumption, that most parents just throw a helmet on their kid was anecdotal and I said as such. I wasn't disproving that some parents gear their kids up, I was implying that they must be a minority in Edmonton.
hehe sorry I must have been tired. I reread your post and that is what you implyed (what you just said in this thread). I obviously misread it and I apoligize.
Posted: Fri May 18, 2007 4:24 pm
by Media Weasel
Interesting thread.
And I'm going to dive in quickly, because my young daughter is one of the reasons I got the bike in the first place. I've gone bicycle riding with her on a trail-a-bike since she was five. Our first "dad and daughter" vacation was by bicycle.
So I wanted to preserve and renovate that spirit in a way that made sense for our busy lifestyles. The most logical route emerged last year, when I realized how many single-person trips I was taking in a minivan to go ref hockey: a motorbike. So I moved up from a 50 cc scooter to a bigger beast.
Some of that was a drive to save gas. Some of that was the drive to introduce my daughter to some of the wonderful and unique moments that come when travelling on two wheels.
And some of that drive came from a very real need to get my young lady to a myriad of events and places: school, baseball games, etc.
When I took my young lady out for an acclimation ride, I knew in two minutes she was ready: she didn't lean or wiggle in an inappropriate way. At the age of 11, all her bike-riding experience and maturity came together in a new medium.
Her safety is of a prime concern to both of her parents. We've talked about it extensively - all three of us have, to be honest. My little lady has crashed her bicycle before so she recalls the pain and discomfort. Hence, she doesn't bellyache about the layers and the gear on the bike.
I can say that I ride with the utmost care at all times. I have my daughter's picture on my bike to remind me that getting home in one piece is my no. 1 job.
The reality of our economy is that in years to come, this may be the only way to get from point A to point B. Currently, it's a choice that has many benefits for our family. To judge or hint that my actions as being wilfull endangerment - as one poster did - shows a gross indifference for the many factors that I, my daughter, and my daughter's mother have evaluated.
Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 3:33 am
by CycleOpsUSA
Copy of a post I made in the other 1/2 of this thread, hoping for all who ride with kids to see it....
This may be an older post, but I felt a need to chime in here having read through this entire thread, and having a 5-1/2YO daughter myself that I take out riding on occassion. Many were wondering what age was OK, but most places don't gto by age, they go by size. If a kid's feet can read the pegs, then it is usually acceptable for them legally. Some states do however have minimum age restrictions.
A few points I have to make regarding child riders:
1) Kids' attention spans suck! They get easily distracted by something, or they get complacent and sometimes simply let go. Not a good thing! This is why a
BUDDY BELT IS BAD NEWS for kids. It requires attention on their part, and if they let go, well, you know what happens then...
2) Kids tend to fidget around some, hampering the rider's balance, obviously the more the kid weighs the more this can be a problem. It also causes the rider to take some attention from the road as you simply can't not pay attention to a kid moving around.
3) A small child leaning back on a sisy bar is usually positioned too far back for the rider to 'feel' them, and ultimately what they're doing back there, not a good thing. A kid holding a sissy bar itself and not the rider is simply foolish and irresponsible.
There is a solution, and one that is simpler, and 1/2 the price of the Child Rider Belt.
You can find them available at
http://www.CycleOpsUSA.com on the Accessories Page for only $75, a very small price to pay for your kid's safety. It consists of two extra heavy military spec webbed belts, attached together by a smaller 'loop' of similar material. This loop allows a little freedom, yet still allows you total control of the passenger. There is a handle positioned for the small passenger if they choose to use it, or they simply hold on to you, or not even hold on at all, with no fear of you losing the feel of where they are in relation to you, and no matter what kind of defensive maneuver you need to do, they stay right where they belong.
One last note... ever have a kid fall asleep while on a ride? Don't laugh, it happens more than you'd imagine! This belt even aloows a kid to nod off, with no fear of falling. For these kids, simply place it higher up toward their armpits and let 'em nod off!
Here's a few pics of it. I cannot endorse this absolutely must have safety item enough!
