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A large majority of motorcycle crashes happen in turns. It doesn't have as much to do with not seeing a hazard as not knowing how to pilot your bike.

you're right, storysunfolding, common sense and Mr. Ed says slow down, curve ahead but it seems that common sense and wrist twisting are 2 different things huh?

i rode for maybe 7 or 8 years, and then tool the msf with an EX gf. I don't really remember if it helped me with anything. It may have, but I guess if it did it wasnt noticable enough I remember.

I've always been a teach yourself type of person anyway. That works for better for some people than others.

storysunfolding wrote:A large majority of motorcycle crashes happen in turns. It doesn't have as much to do with not seeing a hazard as not knowing how to pilot your bike.

A majority of single vehicle crashes happen in corners. Most multi vehicle accidents happen at intersections.

Skier wrote:

Sev wrote:

jonnythan wrote:Riders without formal training are far more likely to die in an accident than riders with formal training.

Please get some.

Based upon what facts?

If the Hurt report ain't your bag there's other sources:

Idaho STAR 2005 annual report wrote: A review of all 2,530 motorcycle crashes statewide from 1996 through 2003 revealed 92% of those involved had not attended a STAR training class. Further research of this data indicated that STAR training is associated with a 64% reduced crash risk and a 69% reduction in the risk of a fatal crash. In addition, it is estimated that if the 108 "untrained" fatalities had received STAR training, 75 would not have died.

Interesting. Is the STAR program affiliated with the MSF, or is it a private enterprise deal or state supported? If it isn't affiliated with the MSF, does the report mention how many of those 92% did have some professional training anyway, just not through their program?

High_Side wrote:

NWTrtle wrote: I really have not heard of anyone who took a course before 1981....

I think that it is great to get all of the training that you can. There is no better training however than getting a a small dirt bike and riding the wheels off of it for a season or two. This step is often over-looked when there are "pay-for-it" options available. With many of the "pay" options featuring instructors who are recent graduates be careful with what you sign up for.

There were courses before 81 run by the Canada Safety Council I know I was teaching back then. I do agree that the course by itself is not enuf. I will not let someone I care about buy a big bike and take a course and ride. Now my enemies might be a different story. If I really am gonna teach someone I start them in the snow on a very small dirt bike off road of course. They WILL know what control is all about and how to fall off. It is the only use I ever had for snow. Some of the snotty attitudes that are shown here suck. I am always willing to ride with new riders with little experience, how in h--- will they learn, if noone wants them around. I kinda wish there had been courses back when I started but I don't know if I would have taken one back then, I never did wanna fit in with everyone else.

MrShake wrote:The MSF program in central illinois done through ISU has been around since the early 70s man.... and has been hard to get into since it offered its first class.... I'm sure plenty of people took classes before 81... kinda an unfounded statement.

there are very important facts that come out of the Hurt report, don't just dismiss it.

92 % of all statistics are skewed to support the users version of the truth. I seriously doubt that more than 8 % of all licenced riders on the road had taken a course back then.....

But then, Illinois must be a far more progressive placed than the back woods of Canada. My father took one of the first courses offered (not MSF) in the area in 1984 after he already had about 24 years of riding under his belt. He found it to be challenging and fun. They had to ride small bikes over large obstacles such as logs and even a teeter-totter (no kidding). One lady in the course broke her arm! Two years later the course had "evolved" in to the circle the pylons variety of course you see today. Safer, but no match for bashing it up on a dirt-bike for a season or hopping over logs.

My more recent experiences are the ones that make me shake my head when I see who is teaching some* of these courses.

- After my wife had a year of dirt-biking under her belt I signed her up with a local motorcycle school to "teach her the right way to ride and avoid passing on all of my bad habits". He took the group out the first night to wash the bikes. When the washing was completed the made an illegal left hand turn across the TransCanada Highway on wet tires and proceeded down one of the cities fast snaking boulevards on 125cc bikes! My wife had to show one of the other riders who stalled his bike on this journey how to start his bike as they hadn't yet covered that..... and the instructor had left them far behind.

-I met a couple two years ago who admitted that they hadn't yet ridden out of the city. By the motorcycle show the following year they were instructors for a local school.

- Another time I was at a motorcycle test ride where they hired a local instructor to lead the groups. He had the yellow vest and the text book lane position but he stalled the Shadow he was riding twice on the ride and looked like he was going to fall over each time he changed his line as he attempted to navigate a corner.

*These are the examples that I will site for my "unfounded statements". Not all courses are bad, and not all instructors are new but it happens and I have been witness to it. Find a GOOD course with a good instructor (if you must)and don't think that when you come out of there that you have anything more than the basics covered. Practice and experience and as erbgottie has said "COMMON SENSE and SITUATIONAL AWARENESS" are everything. When it comes time to teach my kids how to ride on the street they will each have over a decade on the dirt under their belts. I'll be careful to not pass on any bad habits and I'll teach them the things mentioned above and take a pass on the basic riders course (although they will be instuctor material by the time they are 17.... )

Yep I quit teaching about the time they reduced the amount of time on the bike and stopped the obstacles. It was fun to teach when I first started but it sure changed.

High_Side wrote:

MrShake wrote:The MSF program in central illinois done through ISU has been around since the early 70s man.... and has been hard to get into since it offered its first class.... I'm sure plenty of people took classes before 81... kinda an unfounded statement.

there are very important facts that come out of the Hurt report, don't just dismiss it.

92 % of all statistics are skewed to support the users version of the truth. I seriously doubt that more than 8 % of all licenced riders on the road had taken a course back then.....

But then, Illinois must be a far more progressive placed than the back woods of Canada. My father took one of the first courses offered (not MSF) in the area in 1984 after he already had about 24 years of riding under his belt. He found it to be challenging and fun. They had to ride small bikes over large obstacles such as logs and even a teeter-totter (no kidding). One lady in the course broke her arm! Two years later the course had "evolved" in to the circle the pylons variety of course you see today. Safer, but no match for bashing it up on a dirt-bike for a season or hopping over logs.

My more recent experiences are the ones that make me shake my head when I see who is teaching some* of these courses.

- After my wife had a year of dirt-biking under her belt I signed her up with a local motorcycle school to "teach her the right way to ride and avoid passing on all of my bad habits". He took the group out the first night to wash the bikes. When the washing was completed the made an illegal left hand turn across the TransCanada Highway on wet tires and proceeded down one of the cities fast snaking boulevards on 125cc bikes! My wife had to show one of the other riders who stalled his bike on this journey how to start his bike as they hadn't yet covered that..... and the instructor had left them far behind.

-I met a couple two years ago who admitted that they hadn't yet ridden out of the city. By the motorcycle show the following year they were instructors for a local school.

- Another time I was at a motorcycle test ride where they hired a local instructor to lead the groups. He had the yellow vest and the text book lane position but he stalled the Shadow he was riding twice on the ride and looked like he was going to fall over each time he changed his line as he attempted to navigate a corner.

*These are the examples that I will site for my "unfounded statements". Not all courses are bad, and not all instructors are new but it happens and I have been witness to it. Find a GOOD course with a good instructor (if you must)and don't think that when you come out of there that you have anything more than the basics covered. Practice and experience and as erbgottie has said "COMMON SENSE and SITUATIONAL AWARENESS" are everything. When it comes time to teach my kids how to ride on the street they will each have over a decade on the dirt under their belts. I'll be careful to not pass on any bad habits and I'll teach them the things mentioned above and take a pass on the basic riders course (although they will be instuctor material by the time they are 17.... )

I've been in an argumentative mood recently.. hahah (you should see my arguments on the football boards.. WOW).. So don't take this as anything other than argument because I have a lot of respect for you High-Side.. your a great part of this community...... however

your "unfounded statement" had nothing to do with the quality of instruction, but only the idea that few took instruction before 1981. Of that I still disagree...

On the topic of instructors... I had the "pleasure" of being in a class that was the final exam for a batch of 8 NEW instructors. They were basically unable to answer questions other than to re-read the range book back to us and none were very confident. It was a little dissapointing.

That being said, I still believe that ANYONE can learn from the BRC. Especially for people who have never been on a bike. The basics of clutch control and looking the right place in a turn, and a chance to hear about good gear and how it can save your life is important for anyone. To dismiss it as useless or not worthwile is to do a new or even experianced rider a disservice.

I started riding in 1956, long before there were motorcycle safety courses. Most of my friends and I had afternoon paper routes each of which covered several miles. The majority of our group made the transition from bicycles to motorcycles or scooters as soon as we reached the legal age (14). My route was 16 miles long and I delivered 7 days a week. I also rode to and from school each day. I don't know how many miles that adds up to but it was certainly a learning experience. While we did not have to contend with snow, we did ride in all kinds of bad weather. I experienced several slow speed dumps for a variety of reasons but was lucky enough to escape with a few scrapes and bruises. I firmly believe that when you reach the point of overconfidence you are in trouble.

I am just getting back to riding after a layoff of about 15 years. I hope to take the MSF course as a refresher but in my area it is quite difficult to get into the course. I have read that my state is now offerring (in lesser numbers) an advanced course also; I think both courses would be worth the time. I will be very disappointed however if the instructor I get is lacking in real world experience and has been riding for less time than it takes a new pair of socks to wear out.

JR