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You have an opinion, I have facts. You can improve your maximum braking performance with proper technique and practice.

"Good enough" for everyday riding is not sufficient for those out of the ordinary scenarios where you could avoid disaster with better skills.

Skier wrote:You have an opinion, I have facts. You can improve your maximum braking performance with proper technique and practice.

"Good enough" for everyday riding is not sufficient for those out of the ordinary scenarios where you could avoid disaster with better skills.

I think here all you have gone and done is decided to select one aspect of riding "Emerg Braking" then tried to support your self with the opinions of others (articles & Graphs).

The orig topic i took to be everyday riding, there are a million differing scenarios one can come up with, but there are time constraints here as to how over generalised you can be without missing the point and how specific you may want to be with out failing to recognise other issues.


So in the context of everyday riding with out any other variables, my point still stands about clutching and front braking !!!


As i cant rear brake, I consider myself some what of skilled user of the front

its all good

I'm not sure how else to take

Braking with the clutch held in will require a lot further distance to stop than braking with the clutch out and in gear.

aside from face value. Keeping the rear wheel connected to the engine increases stopping distance because it increases complexity of actions required.

Also, how else can we test braking distance aside from using a variety of motorcycles with a variety of riders using a variety of techniques?

Skier wrote:I'm not sure how else to take

Braking with the clutch held in will require a lot further distance to stop than braking with the clutch out and in gear.

aside from face value. Keeping the rear wheel connected to the engine increases stopping distance because it increases complexity of actions required.

Also, how else can we test braking distance aside from using a variety of motorcycles with a variety of riders using a variety of techniques?

Granted

I guess i was hasty in saying "a lot" further, with the advantage of hind sight, I would change that to just "further".


And your right, in order to find conclusively a result that would reflect a varied range of riders, experience, technique and machines one would need to allow for this.


I guess in any case, with the rear wheel still engaged and fighting against a taller gear in a higher rev range whilst applying front, you will stop shorter and safer than just clutching and either stomping on the rear or grabbing the front. I am unable to technically explain this as im not an expert in engineering, I can only say that its from direct application while riding that this finding/opinion is true and works.

shane-o wrote:

Skier wrote:I'm not sure how else to take

Braking with the clutch held in will require a lot further distance to stop than braking with the clutch out and in gear.

aside from face value. Keeping the rear wheel connected to the engine increases stopping distance because it increases complexity of actions required.

Also, how else can we test braking distance aside from using a variety of motorcycles with a variety of riders using a variety of techniques?

Granted

I guess i was hasty in saying "a lot" further, with the advantage of hind sight, I would change that to just "further".


And your right, in order to find conclusively a result that would reflect a varied range of riders, experience, technique and machines one would need to allow for this.

That's exactly what the report I mentioned and quoted did.

shane-o wrote:I guess in any case, with the rear wheel still engaged and fighting against a taller gear in a higher rev range whilst applying front, you will stop shorter and safer than just clutching and either stomping on the rear or grabbing the front. I am unable to technically explain this as im not an expert in engineering, I can only say that its from direct application while riding that this finding/opinion is true and works.

True, if you use one brake or the other in addition to engine braking, you will stop faster than if you just used one brake. However, using both brakes and not engine braking is the only way to get maximum braking.

Skier wrote:I'm not sure how else to take

Braking with the clutch held in will require a lot further distance to stop than braking with the clutch out and in gear.

aside from face value. Keeping the rear wheel connected to the engine increases stopping distance because it increases complexity of actions required.

Also, how else can we test braking distance aside from using a variety of motorcycles with a variety of riders using a variety of techniques?

The British equivalent to the MSF teaches you to do an emergency stop using front and back brakes in sequence (light front - back - hard front) with the clutch fully engaged to maximise your stopping potential through engine braking. You whack open the clutch only as you stop.

If you have time, you shift down just before you stop. But that's a bonus.

Minimum action, minimum input.

sv-wolf wrote:

Skier wrote:I'm not sure how else to take

Braking with the clutch held in will require a lot further distance to stop than braking with the clutch out and in gear.

aside from face value. Keeping the rear wheel connected to the engine increases stopping distance because it increases complexity of actions required.

Also, how else can we test braking distance aside from using a variety of motorcycles with a variety of riders using a variety of techniques?

The British equivalent to the MSF teaches you to do an emergency stop using front and back brakes in sequence (light front - back - hard front) with the clutch fully engaged to maximise your stopping potential through engine braking.

That sequence has the undesired effects of rear wheel hopping if it ever locks up. Instead of having the option of releasing the rear brake to regain traction, you'll be dealing with driveline slop and engine braking combining to make for a jerky reacquisition of traction. This is exactly opposite of what you want when performing maximum braking.

The one time I can think of when you would want to use engine braking in addition to the rear brake, in a maximum braking scenario, is if your rear brake does not have sufficient power to lock the rear wheel. In that case you can eek a bit more braking out of the rear tire by increasing complexity of actions and thoughts.

Skier wrote:

sv-wolf wrote:

Skier wrote:I'm not sure how else to take

Braking with the clutch held in will require a lot further distance to stop than braking with the clutch out and in gear.

aside from face value. Keeping the rear wheel connected to the engine increases stopping distance because it increases complexity of actions required.

Also, how else can we test braking distance aside from using a variety of motorcycles with a variety of riders using a variety of techniques?

The British equivalent to the MSF teaches you to do an emergency stop using front and back brakes in sequence (light front - back - hard front) with the clutch fully engaged to maximise your stopping potential through engine braking.

That sequence has the undesired effects of rear wheel hopping if it ever locks up. Instead of having the option of releasing the rear brake to regain traction, you'll be dealing with driveline slop and engine braking combining to make for a jerky reacquisition of traction. This is exactly opposite of what you want when performing maximum braking.

The one time I can think of when you would want to use engine braking in addition to the rear brake, in a maximum braking scenario, is if your rear brake does not have sufficient power to lock the rear wheel. In that case you can eek a bit more braking out of the rear tire by increasing complexity of actions and thoughts.

To be honest


Even thinking of using a rear brake in an "Emerg" situation is a near waste of time.

The front gives you about 80% of your stopping power, in order to keep her straightish and balanced, you just leave her in gear to settle the rear.

Cause to be honest, reactively hitting the rear is only going to increase your ability to slide into what ever you want to avoid. This is especially true of those who are scared of the front, don't know how to use it effectively, and those who rely heavily/only on rear brake.


I mean at the end of the day, what ever technique you use to avoid being hit or hitting something, that keeps you up-right and safe, is the right one to use, no matter what it is.

shane-o wrote:

Skier wrote:

sv-wolf wrote:

Skier wrote:I'm not sure how else to take

Braking with the clutch held in will require a lot further distance to stop than braking with the clutch out and in gear.

aside from face value. Keeping the rear wheel connected to the engine increases stopping distance because it increases complexity of actions required.

Also, how else can we test braking distance aside from using a variety of motorcycles with a variety of riders using a variety of techniques?

The British equivalent to the MSF teaches you to do an emergency stop using front and back brakes in sequence (light front - back - hard front) with the clutch fully engaged to maximise your stopping potential through engine braking.

That sequence has the undesired effects of rear wheel hopping if it ever locks up. Instead of having the option of releasing the rear brake to regain traction, you'll be dealing with driveline slop and engine braking combining to make for a jerky reacquisition of traction. This is exactly opposite of what you want when performing maximum braking.

The one time I can think of when you would want to use engine braking in addition to the rear brake, in a maximum braking scenario, is if your rear brake does not have sufficient power to lock the rear wheel. In that case you can eek a bit more braking out of the rear tire by increasing complexity of actions and thoughts.

To be honest


Even thinking of using a rear brake in an "Emerg" situation is a near waste of time.

The front gives you about 80% of your stopping power, in order to keep her straightish and balanced, you just leave her in gear to settle the rear.

Cause to be honest, reactively hitting the rear is only going to increase your ability to slide into what ever you want to avoid. This is especially true of those who are scared of the front, don't know how to use it effectively, and those who rely heavily/only on rear brake.


I mean at the end of the day, what ever technique you use to avoid being hit or hitting something, that keeps you up-right and safe, is the right one to use, no matter what it is.

To be honest, not using 100% of available traction in an emergency situation is a waste.

Using just your front brake, especially on cruiser-style bikes, doesn't give you maximum braking. The foot, or meter, or 10 feet or 10 meters you shave off your stopping distance can be the difference between a close call and a trip to the hospital.

There is no need to try to keep the rear of the bike settled by leaving it in gear. If the bike is straight up when you're braking, it's not an issue. If the bike isn't upright and you romp on the brakes, leaving the rear wheel and engine connected isn't going to help.

Only untrained, unexperienced riders who don't practice will lock the rear tire under hard braking.

If riders are scared of the front brake, don't know how to use it effectively or use just the rear brake, they are lacking a vital motorcycling skill.

Playing fast and loose with motorcycling skills is taking a large risk. What's "good enough" for most situation, even most emergency situations, can be insufficient for rarer emergency situations. Maximum braking is one of the skills that can save your bacon. Every inch counts.

(Phew, those nested quotes are getting gnarly)

shane-o wrote:To be honest


Even thinking of using a rear brake in an "Emerg" situation is a near waste of time.

The front gives you about 80% of your stopping power, in order to keep her straightish and balanced, you just leave her in gear to settle the rear.

So in an emergency, you're just going to leave out the remaining 20% of your stopping power? Leaving the bike in gear is not going to equal the stopping power of the rear brake.

I've been making emergency stops for decades using both brakes. If you have practiced and know how to do it properly (i.e. don't panic and lock the rear), you can have 100% of your braking power in an emergency. That just might make the differnce between a good scare and bent metal.