Words of Wisdom...I need 'em!

[Funderbird]

Mazer,
I suck at the quote thing, I agree with most of what you said, and in my case 6' 2 240 I would not do any of the things I suggested. But come on, if it was my wife on that bike and in the same situation I would tell her to do anything possible to stay safe. Speeding away could get her killed, hitting a car head on at 60 is much worse than explaining an illegal action.


[/quote]It is illegal to throw anything on the roadway or at a moving vehicle. I believe in many states it is a felony to throw something at a moving vehicle

As I said before, anything to get out of harms way. The badge thing, I meant sew it on the jacket, in order to be considered impersonating a police office you have to use it in a authorities way. Such as, flash it and say I am a cop. Case in point, There is a group of bikers that ride for LAPD. They all have LAPD patches on there backs. I assumed that there where all police officers. There fore I didn't pass them doing 80. But that may not have been the case. Anything to get a nut job to think twice before running you off the road.

This is a great idea, but try to recall information with your brain in case your equipment fails

It takes years for people to remember things in high stress situations. Heck my buddy tells me all the time he hates the cameras on his car, his recolection is somewhat differant that the tape. he will get hosed.

Lets face the facts, if Coffee_break did one of the aggressive things I mentioned and explained what this turd was trying to do, it would most likely be an explainable action. using his vehicle to ram her is a felony in its self, possible attempted vehicle manslaughter or something similar.

If you use force to protect yourself, then as long as it isn't excessive it will be all right.

Now, don't get me wrong, 99.9% of the time what she did was the right thing to do. But a woman alone out in the sticks? Being chased by a maniac wheilding a 3 ton battering ram what would you do?

I read all the time that us bikers just roll the throttle and leave the situation. I personal have driven a car that would catch any normal bike on any day. 9.7 ¼ mile time…

[mazer]

But a woman alone out in the sticks? Being chased by a maniac wheilding a 3 ton battering ram what would you do?

As I mentioned in my previous posting it has happened to me. I was on my motorcycle when I lived in Hawaii. A guy in a car just started chasing after me. I dont know what his issues were, and I dont care. I ended up avoiding a confrontation and reporting him and his "attempted assault with a deadly weapon" to the police. I dont know what became of the guy or what the officers did, I dont care. I do know my message came from a guy with a gun and a badge on his uniform with the local law on his side. Not by little ole me. Even tho I had just graduated from the police academy and probably could have met any of his bad attitude with that of my own. But Im not living in a fantasy world, fact is, 1. I dont know who this guy is or more important what he is capable of etc. That he has demonstrated a willingness to chase me down in his vehicle tells me I am probably dealing with someone with anger control issues at the very least. Do I really want to remain in contact with this guy to let him know he has done me wrong and I dont appreciate it....h*ll no!
I have been in worse situations where I have actually feared for my life while in a bad part of town and used just my wits to get out of the situation - nobody got hurt and I never had to step up to convince my peers that I was just in my actions.

If you use force to protect yourself, then as long as it isn't excessive it will be all right.

If I have learned anything at all I have learned that law is called a practice for a reason, like medicine it is never black and white. It is the ifs, ands and buts that can make or break your case. You have to really be careful out there in "defending yourself" Laws differ in different states, I dont know what the laws in your state are but I do know in my state if you have been assualted and the person who assults you has turned to leave or a certain amount of time has passed after his assaultive action, and you act, you may be up for assault charges yourself - just to cite one of the many, many, many ways a fight or argument can eventually go against the original victim.
Recommendations are always favor of walking away if you can. Talking it out if you can. and if you can not remember the details like a license plate or the description of a vehicle or person, how are you going to recall the finer details of the event if you end up in court trying to defend your actions?
If it was your wife on that bike, I would want her to or ANYONE ELSE, to have the same outcome as the OP. To have remained safe to ride again tomorrow. I would rather have seen the SOB in the truck with his name and photo in the local newscast getting his a** arrested for attempted assualt with a deadly weapon. I only hope that he never puts another person through the terrific horror he put the OP through, and I hope if he tries it again, the law gets called and he thinks twice about his actions in the future.
Play the game LEO's do. Test your memory about where you are on the road what were the numbers on the mile marker you just passed by, was that a red barn or a grey silo back there near the brown cows or were they black and white? and the license plate of the vehicle you just passed, better yet the license plate frame - what city was the dealer or mechanics shop printed on the frame or the people sitting in that vehicle who were sitting at the stop sign back at the last intersection, or those sitting next to you at the cafe you had lunch at and what they were wearing...Murders have been solved by ordinary people doing just this.
Say safe and keep the shiny side up!

[Funderbird]

I think I should have written more and explqaqined my self. I agree with the notion of keeping out of harms way and avoiding the situation. My only point was, in the worst case, last possible act is to defend your self or rather her self. The tazer, pepperspray and any other self defense measure is a last resort type of situation. Not just ride allong side someone and spray. The patch on the jacket was a deturant. ("oh wow that person on the bike might be a cop") and if in the sticks riding alone wear it. The plastic gun was just a possibility of getting a chance to get away, Not the best idea but hey it could save her life. If she was out in the sticks allone and it happened again.

As I mentioned in my previous posting it has happened to me. I was on my motorcycle when I lived in Hawaii. A guy in a car just started chasing after me. I dont know what his issues were, and I dont care. I ended up avoiding a confrontation and reporting him and his "attempted assault with a deadly weapon" to the police. I dont know what became of the guy or what the officers did, I dont care. I do know my message came from a guy with a gun and a badge on his uniform with the local law on his side. Not by little ole me. Even tho I had just graduated from the police academy and probably could have met any of his bad attitude with that of my own. But Im not living in a fantasy world, fact is, 1. I dont know who this guy is or more important what he is capable of etc. That he has demonstrated a willingness to chase me down in his vehicle tells me I am probably dealing with someone with anger control issues at the very least. Do I really want to remain in contact with this guy to let him know he has done me wrong and I dont appreciate it....h*ll no!
I have been in worse situations where I have actually feared for my life while in a bad part of town and used just my wits to get out of the situation - nobody got hurt and I never had to step up to convince my peers that I was just in my actions.

From what I read it sounds as if you are an officer of the law. I believe your senses and hell even mine are honed to be able to deal with this type of situation better than the normal person that has a 9-5 mellow non confrontal existance. My brother is a cop, he is jonny on the spot in all situation. When driving, at the mall in every situation he has a mental agenda of what he is going to do.

My wife on the other hand will freeze up if someone starts a fight in her location, I however grab her the kids and make a hasty retreat. I am not saying that coffee_break did or would freeze in another similar situation. Just that when a person has the opportunity to be in this or other high stress situations a panic may set in and that is the point that things go wrong.

So, all in all the basic thoughs behind my post are simple. If out and alone be as hard of a target as possible. If the situation calls for self defense then have the means to defend. This could have gone the other way, the man could have clipped coffee_break. Then she would be on the ground with no defense if man wanted to do something. I don't mean to disrespect you, but it sounds like you just want her to get away and call the police. This is great in a perfect situation, but what about when it goes wrong? You of all people know that situations can go from bad to worse in a blink of an eye...Why not be as protected as possible?

My last story is similar to yours, I had a man run me off the road for cutting him off. I was in a small SUV, 18 years old and scarred. he got out of his truck and ran up to my truck. I locked the doors and he beat and kicked the door. My only saving grace was that I was in a vehical. If I had been on a bike he would have beat me stupid. I was lucky enough to have a CHP officer drive by on the oppisite side of the devided road. He flipped his lights and sped down to flip around. The man got in his truck and left. I filled out a report and never heard anything about it. I had to pay to get my door fixed.

[mazer]

I don't mean to disrespect you, but it sounds like you just want her to get away and call the police.

No disrespect taken. Nothing gets worked out if people dont put it on the table to talk it out.
In this case I responded to coffee-breaks story. What she did worked, I would have loved to see her call the cops and have the #&%@*guy pulled over and questioned, maybe have had his car searched.
The old adage where there is smoke there is fire is usually correct in a situation like this, chances are this turd tried this before and got away with it, he keeps doing it because he keeps getting away with it, I would bet 10 to 1 he either has a warrant out against him for something.
He has an anger problem - who knows he might have been carrying something drugs or worse if you stopped to confront him a gun...once safe a simple call to the cops saying he was driving erractically, running people off the road and looked drunk or whatever you want to come up with might have been the last call against him for years.
To me, it is always worth it to stay safe and call it in.

This is great in a perfect situation, but what about when it goes wrong?

The fact is is that coffee-breaks situation was not perfect, she was put in a position where she felt her life was threatened - she took evasive action, broke a few vehicle code violations but she avoided what she deemed a maniac behind the wheel (and rightly so) - what she did worked.
Your question is exactly why you dont want to ever put yourself in an aggressors shoes. If you throw things at the car, the car goes out of control crashes into another car and kills someone, just because - what you were trying to teach someone a lesson or try and get away? worth it?

So many defensive positions have turned against the person trying to stand up for himself. This has caused inordinate amount of unnecessary suffering, to the original victim, and his or her friends and family members so many other options, the first of which is to walk away, are available and should be attempted.

You of all people know that situations can go from bad to worse in a blink of an eye...Why not be as protected as possible?

Being protected does not insure your safety...it might minimize damage, but it might make things worse. You pull your pretend gun - someone who has a real one blows you away - defend your actions. Why are you carrying a pretend gun? If you inadvertently pull it on an off duty security guard who is being an "O Ring" and has anger issue, but he is authorized to carry a loaded weapon - after he shoots you, assuming you live, what is your defense? He was being an "O Ring" and threatening me and I panicked and thought this would get him off my back...it may fly, but it probably wont and instead of you having have walked away from a potential deadly situation and lived and remained a free citizen to be a Dad to your kids, you decided to defend or protect yourself.

The bottom line is that we do not know who we are dealing with, their true intentions, what triggers them, or what might defuse them, we dont know if they are under the influence, or trained in martial arts or are carrying a weapon.
You are absolutely 100% in the right, situations go to crap in a split second, as motorcycle riders most of us have experienced this on the road without the addition of jerks behind the wheel of a 4000 pound vehicle of death intent to run us off the road.
However - I think too many people with a weapon of some sort readily available during an altercation, are too willing to use it, when so many other options are as effective.
Think about your scenarios. Picture yourself as the victor, this is what most of us act on. Now take that scenario and add some innocent people in uncontrolled situations and throw in some crappy luck to boot. Now you are either in court trying to defend your actions, or behind bars because your self preservation actions did not go so well.
Facts are facts, yes you are riding a bike and yes you can be squashed like a big in a split second by anyone (including an airhead soccer mom in an SUV talking on the phone, sipping her Starbucks while turning into your right of way) she is just as dangerous. How are you going to protect yourself from her? Does she deserve to have you threatening her life because you dodged her SUV and decided to throw something at her car, causing her to go out of control and crash???
See my point.
Self preservaton is your best protection, after that comes good samaritans and the law. Part of your protection should include a good memory, a willingness to walk away or get away with your life intact and a pen or pencil and a cell phone (you can always put the licence number in your cell phone if you dont have a pen or pencil for safe keeping on your way to the nearest police department.
I am sorry to hear that you had damage done to your vehicle by some hormone raging teen, I had no damage to me or my motorcycle during my situation. In your situation, I would have gotten the officers business card and asked for a report and taken that little creep to court to pay for the damages.
We have brakes on our bikes, we have the option to stop and whip those little machines into a U turn on a dime and head the other way.
Adrenaline can be as bad as alcohol - liquid courage. It can make a horrible situation life altering. Call in the driver as acting like he is drunk and trying to run people off the road. This may even be true, who knows, but it will get more response than telling them some guy is just driving crazy or is out to get you.

[Funderbird]

I see your point, she did the best thing she could have done in the current situation. I was concearned that high speed manuvers are always a bad Idea. At least that is what the MSF tells us. The truth of the matter is, we could speculate and guess and recommend till the ends of the earth. Each situation will always be differant and most likely have a differand out come.

Off duty security guard has a real gun verses plastic, good point. I can see the recklessness of this action. My thought was that no one in the world carries guns illeagaly! Little presumptous, should said get a concealed weapons permit. But has you said, it wouldn't mean they did have a gun too...

including an airhead soccer mom in an SUV talking on the phone, sipping her Starbucks while turning into your right of way)

This is why we should all carry guns



The truth of the matter is, I pictured my wife on the back of that road rocket and frankly thought of every possible situation. Brainstorming if you will...If I gave it more thought, as you have I might have given some differant advice. Definately getting to a phone would be the best idea! But what to do if no phone for miles and speed is the only option. I felt that speeding away is just as dangerous as pulling one of the many defensive measures. As I said before hitting another car at 60 would have any possible chance.

It was my mindset that she had no phone, speeding on unfarmiliar road just sounded bad. In my situation I stayed in the car and someone came to my rescue. But on a bike? My measure were there in the case the biker gets to a foot or road side confrontation. You or I could possibly defend our selves on foot against a maniac. I know this is bad, but that whole women are weaker and need to be protected thing popped in to my head.

[MZ33]

women are weaker and need to be protected

Oh dear. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear. I'm sure you meant it "no disrespect intended," but I'm sure as hell not going to let a comment like this slide by without response. Especially in the Ladies Lounge.

You can rephrase that to something like: "women are physically smaller and thus more vulnerable to attack", and be a lot more accurate. There is a HUGE difference between your comment and my amendment.

"Weaker" is very generic, and not too far from "inferior." Don't even argue with me on this unless you are 45+ years old and a female. My nieces may not readily understand this either, they are in their 20's, but it wasn't too long ago that I had to fight against that underlying assumption. All the time. In fact, the right for my gender to vote is less than 100 years old. When my grandmother was born, it didn't exist. (See "Iron Jawed Angels" for a tutorial.)

Proportionately, the only physical aspect that I know for sure is that males have a higher percentage of hemoglobin in their blood, (therefore more oxygen-carrying capacity) and a higher percentage of lung volume than females. Some of our strengths are different than men's, and we may do things differently because of that, but that does not equal "weaker."

"Need to be protected" happened to you when you were 18 years old and in that car. Fortunately for you, your car protected you, until the cop came and chased off your attacker. We all need to be protected from time to time.

The whole point of this original post was that coffee_brake wants to know what she could have done better to protect herself, which is entirely appropriate, since it is her responsibility to do so. And yeah, we dole out emotional support for that, too.

[Funderbird]

AH crap,
That is not what I ment! (inset foot and chew toes off) !!!! I was raised in a southern style that you treat woman with respct all the time, don't hit or anything that could possibly cause pain. Women are just as smart if not smarter and the gender does not mean squat. Wow, really put my foot in it. I was refering to the whole Knight in shinning armor rescuing the damsal in distress. A old out of date notion for some but the way I treat women just the same. Open doors, pay for meals and all that stuff. i am far from a pig in the sence of treating woman as they can not do anything. Your ammendment was to the tee. I did however intend to say that women are not as physicaly strong. Ah crap, I am just digging a hole....To all the ladies in the lounge...I am sorry...My wife is going to have a hay day with this one...The best explaination...well I am just a big dumb animal..."Who does not know when to keep his trap shut" (My wife talking)

[Lion_Lady]

I know this is bad, but that whole women are weaker and need to be protected thing popped in to my head.

Its men with your attitude that teach their wives and daughters to BE powerless. . . I can't let that comment slide either.

Think about it. I'll give you that we may not have the physical strength that men have, but we sure can be SMARTER than most men. And smart women pay attention to their surroundings. They listen to their intuition when a person gets their hackles up, and keep that person at arm's distance or farther.

They learn how to defend themselves (read: incapacitate an attacker) without the use of a TOOL such as a gun or knife that could be taken away and used against us by someone who's beyond feeling pain - drugged out or psycho. And I'm not talking about an eye gouge (ick!!) or knee to the groin.

But it all starts with Mind Set: "I will not be taken advantage of. I will not become a victim." You gotta live it.

I've got a few mind games to use that should keep any suspicious person from choosing me... If being polite but firm doesn't work, switch to insane be-yotch and throw in a bit of profanity for the shock factor. Most women are afraid of offending a stranger, even if their senses are screaming DANGERDANGERDANGER! and as a result will allow a suspicious person to get close enough to do harm.

A Kubaton is an innocuous-looking, potentially deadly self-defense tool. And it doesn't require months of special classes to use effectively. I carry one on my house keys. I found a source that even has a training video: http://www.selfdefenseproducts.com/Keyc ... istick.php The cool thing is, I've carried mine in plain sight for 4 years and NO ONE has any idea that it could be as lethal as an 8" blade (but it is a defense tool only).

P

[coffee_brake]

Funderbird, I know what you meant, I wasn't offended.
I *am* weaker than the dude in the truck. I gotta make sure there is no physical contact because he will win. I have to have 1) a strategy to avoid and 2) a plan to fight if that fails.

I read the thread over and...now I'm practising noticing where I am, the roads I always take, what are they called? Every big vehicle I pass, trying to remember the color and make, and any dents or marks. I've always looked at the driver in the car's mirrors, just 'cause I like to, but now I see that I'm not using the brains God gave me and paying attention to all this, although I am always paying attention to traffic in general and consider myself a pretty proficient rider.

Lion_Lady, thanks for bringing up the ideas about self-defense, you must have been at that lecture too at the '05 AMA conference, that lecture changed my life. Also the reminder about the kubaton...I should get one.

But I'm not giving up my handgun. My nightmare is waking up in the dark in my tent and hearing not one, but three or four good 'ole boys, drunk and laughing as they try to unzip the tent. I'm going to be ready for all of them. Ladies, you know it could happen, and sorry guys, but you fellows know plenty of your own gender who will do *whatever* they think they can get away with as regards physical attacks. Being drunk or high makes you think you can get away with more.

This whole thing, and now this thread, have served as a much needed reminder. I need to pay more attention, have better plans in place, remember how I'm going to go Ape-sh** if someone threatens me for real, and get that cell where I can dial 911 on the fly.

I *have* gotten words of wisdom and I'm still listening!

[mazer]

I am glad Funderbird has challenged my view points, and am glad coffee-break posted to begin with. We do need to be aware of our surroundings at all times.
Yeah, I was professionally trained, and know where I am (seems a miracle that it happens even when my head is somewhere else) and it has become second nature to me, and is of great comfort.
If you dont think you have the skills to power out of a situation on your bike, what better move than to U Turn all quick like and have remembered that little spur road off the main road a half a mile back at mile marker (fill in mile marker number) where you can get off the road and maybe get help at the ranch you saw there. Low and behold I recalled a pay phone back at (fill in) I saw some picnicers back there at that little park or scenic turn off - I wonder if they have a cell phone better than mine or at least could help me make a unified front against the crazed driver in case he turns around to continue his harrassment. You might even recall a police car hiding behind a ramp waiting for a speeding driver.....
You never know what help you could have available to you that you might have just passed if you dont pay attention. to where you are or what is in our surroundings
People often ask me about self preservation or what if. Im lazy, I would rather not fight, I try and talk my way out of things if I am face to face with that person but I usually say keep your distance from the aggressor, that is your first line of defense. If you have to fight be prepared to give it your all. I have seen an untrained woman barely 5'5" take out a trained prison guard...oh wait, that was me
Practice your self defense moves on the biggest guys you know. Take a self dense class, get pepper spray - having seen officers go down when the early pepper spray cans first came out, it will take a person out for a good amount of time, enough time for him to be distracted and for you to get away. Taking self defense classes will help you be more confident, even if you chose never to use them.
If you have memory troubles play games with your spouse or better yet your kids while in the car, what was the color of the car that last passed you going the other way, you will see in time, your memory will get better.
Funderbird, thanks for the great debate...stay safe everyone