Link to NHTSA injury/fatality studies, etc

[Skier]

It seems that speed is usually the first "step" up that ladder of risk.

We've got a fair # of sportbikers who cream themselves all over the median, or guard rail on an exit ramp, because they first of all, entered a curve too fast for their skills, and panicked.

P

The accident investigators that aren't riders likely have a tough time distinguishing between excessive speed (for the bike) and rider error (not looking through the curve). Both will end up with failure to negotiate the corner accidents but unless one knows motorcycles and motorcycle tires well, it's quite easy to write down "excessive speed" and call it a day.

True enough, but isn't too much speed the essential factor?

More than a few of us have had the experience of going into a curve too fast, and then realizing we're looking at the guardrail, etc, NOT "through the turn" - in time to wrench our eyes around where they need to be.

It all begins with speed.

P

Using "excessive speed" as a catch-all for motorcycle accidents can obscure other issues that can be fixed via rider education.

[MZ33]

Using "excessive speed" as a catch-all for motorcycle accidents can obscure other issues that can be fixed via rider education

I still think it depends on how the investigators define and use the word, and how the analysts define and use the same word in the report.

It'd be helpful if we could ask an investigator, I guess. There must be some sort of standards for reporting such things. I assume so in part because the roads get closed for a really long time around here when there has been a fatal or serious-injury accident, precisely so that they can do a thorough investigation.

[Lion_Lady]

"Rider Education" is only effective if folks are willing to admit they don't know all they need to know, to ride safely. . . and then take measures to educate themselves to become better/safer riders.

P

[Skier]

"Rider Education" is only effective if folks are willing to admit they don't know all they need to know, to ride safely. . . and then take measures to educate themselves to become better/safer riders.

P

If rider training doesn't address common safety issues on the road, why bother?

Rider educators need to know what to teach in order to be effective.

[MZ33]

This must be semantics. I know we all agree on the basics: that utilizing real data/research is the best basis for what to teach. And if I'm reading correctly, Skier believes that the accident reports fall short, in that they ascribe "excessive speed" to just about everything in an MC accident.

Am I on target so far?

[RhadamYgg]

"Rider Education" is only effective if folks are willing to admit they don't know all they need to know, to ride safely. . . and then take measures to educate themselves to become better/safer riders.

P

If rider training doesn't address common safety issues on the road, why bother?

Rider educators need to know what to teach in order to be effective.

This is something that is addressed in the Hough book - Proficient Motorcycling. There should be more road-oriented courses out there - with real-world conditions, etc. To help riders learn to adapt to traffic. As hard or easy riding a motorcycle is - road conditions - primarily other drivers but not exclusive only to them - are much more complex.

I think this is what makes motorcycling an adventure when first starting up. You have to learn a lot of new skills fast.

There was a course, partially weekend ride and part course - that was on-road and the group was surrounded by two teachers - each with cameras equipped on their bikes. After each segment of riding the coaches/teachers would look at the tapes and show people where they are going wrong or what they are open for if they ride in a specific manner. It was in Rider magazine or something. It was really good. I think it is a continuance of the courses that were offered by the guy that unfortunately died on a deer impact.

But of course, I'm sure that costs dollars.

RhadamYgg

[Lion_Lady]

I guess I'm seeing our disagreement as an "apples to oranges" comparison.

No argument that rider education is key in preventing most crashes. But too few riders ever bother to take a BASIC motorcycle training course (unless it means they can get an MVA/DMV test waiver), let alone anything more advanced that is available.

So, how to solve that dilemna?

P

[Brackstone]

I think panic causes a lot of accidents.

This winter alone I've grabbed too much throttle and had my rear wheel slip out on me twice. I stayed in control and was able to shift my body weight and let up on the throttle a bit to keep the bike upright.

I've almost been in I'd say about 4 serious accidents where cars did not see me and I was able to avoid those accidents by staying calm.

Don't get me wrong it's scary, but I always maintain control of the bike.

[Brackstone]

I guess I'm seeing our disagreement as an "apples to oranges" comparison.

No argument that rider education is key in preventing most crashes. But too few riders ever bother to take a BASIC motorcycle training course (unless it means they can get an MVA/DMV test waiver), let alone anything more advanced that is available.

So, how to solve that dilemna?

P

I agree with what you are saying Lion Lady, but I think this is a "Stupid is as Stupid does" scenario.

For ever 10 "I wanna get a new motorcycle" people I meet only 2 of them are open to input about being safe and ATGATT. The other 8 are just "I'm gonna wear a 3/4 helmet and that's it!"

Outside of saying you HAVE to take a class in order to get your motorcycle license I don't think there is anything we can do. But even that has it's perils.

I had a huge writeup here but I didnt' want to hijack this thread so I'm gonna start another thread.

[Lion_Lady]

The tough nut isn't making training required (folks who think they don't need it, rarely participate 100% when forced into anything), but figuring out how (if it is even possible) to change the thinking for those folks disinclined to avail themselves of training on their own.

P