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I've talked with you about this before, Scav. I think we both know where the other stands. I know you've read the Bible, but you seem to have forgotten that a great deal of it contains stories detailing God exacting death on those deserving, sometimes even through the hands of His followers.

I agree it is tragic that so many lives have been lost in this war. I wish they were still alive. But as long as there are men, there will be war. Whether you feel the reason for the war (however clouded the actual reason may be) is justified or not, there will be war. Don't forget all of Congress is also responsible for the war. It's not just Bush's campaign.

Don't forget also, that there was genocide actively being practiced. This war has stopped that, and the number of lives lost in the war is most likely far less than the number which would have been lost through genocide without the war.

Toyuzu wrote:I've talked with you about this before, Scav. I think we both know where the other stands. I know you've read the Bible, but you seem to have forgotten that a great deal of it contains stories detailing God exacting death on those deserving, sometimes even through the hands of His followers.

You know I've agreed to try to stay clear of this issue, but I'll say one thing in regards to the Bible and God exacting death. The new testament was a new chapter for the relationship between God and man. If Christ had not walked this earth, I'd agree with you, but Jesus had another plan. Passivism was his way. Turn the other cheek was not just a one situation idea. If you are a Christian, truely Christ-like, you take the kicking without kicking back - and the meek shall get their returns. You should believe fully in the concept of meeting up with God and Jesus afterwards and your rewards for your pain and suffering will be the seat at their side.

And as far as God in the roll of smiter of the evil, unless you think God is having a direct conversation with someone about doing his bidding, I just don't see how this mission is more one of God than any other military operation. Christianity has always managed to forget Christ when they don't want to suffer on this earth and feel they are more right than someone else. The crazy terrorist also think they are working for God. Our response is agressive. How else could you do it? I don't know. This might be the right way, but I doubt it has God's seal of aproval.

At least the way I've read it.

scanevalexec wrote:

Toyuzu wrote:I've talked with you about this before, Scav. I think we both know where the other stands. I know you've read the Bible, but you seem to have forgotten that a great deal of it contains stories detailing God exacting death on those deserving, sometimes even through the hands of His followers.

You know I've agreed to try to stay clear of this issue, but I'll say one thing in regards to the Bible and God exacting death. The new testament was a new chapter for the relationship between God and man. If Christ had not walked this earth, I'd agree with you, but Jesus had another plan. Passivism was his way.

Passivism, while a noble concept and most of the time the best response is more of a modern, new-age concept. Even Christ was not completely passive. remember the clearing of the temple?

scanevalexec wrote:Turn the other cheek was not just a one situation idea. If you are a Christian, truely Christ-like, you take the kicking without kicking back - and the meek shall get their returns. You should believe fully in the concept of meeting up with God and Jesus afterwards and your rewards for your pain and suffering will be the seat at their side.

I agree with you there. It's a concept that is new to me in it's extreme sense, when applied to all facets of life. Even Christians continue to learn God's will throughout their lives. We humans tend to react defensively when harmed. In almost all occasions, I believe God wants us to turn the other cheek. However, there are exceptions, even in the new testament. God charges particularly men to be protectors of their families, and leaders to be protectors of those they lead.

Do you think God would really want Bush to react to the twin towers tragedy, by saying "here you go, Al Queda - here's another couple of jets, and the Sears tower is right there in Chicago."

That may be a bit extreme, but you see my point? The fact is noone can say for sure what God's explicit will is save God himself. Those of us who believe in Him must simply follow the leading of His Spirit in our lives, and make every choice as best we can based on that leading.

That leading in my life gives me confidence that George is a good leader. I still don't understand the war, or the loss of life. However, I'm content to trust My Creator with that which I don't understand.

scanevalexec wrote:And as far as God in the roll of smiter of the evil, unless you think God is having a direct conversation with someone about doing his bidding, I just don't see how this mission is more one of God than any other military operation. Christianity has always managed to forget Christ when they don't want to suffer on this earth and feel they are more right than someone else.

Christianity does not forget God. Humans, who have a sin nature forget God. Don't blame the failures of people who claim to be Christians on God. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven, remember? I believe God does speak directly to people. Not the audible voice from heaven, like people enjoy laughing about, but more a gentle prodding by His spirit, to those who are close enough to Him to hear. He speaks through prayer, and reading His word. I have experienced this myself.

scanevalexec wrote:The crazy terrorist also think they are working for God. Our response is agressive. How else could you do it? I don't know. This might be the right way, but I doubt it has God's seal of aproval.

At least the way I've read it.

Some things will never be understood while on earth. I hope you don't think I'm trying to start a debate. I rarely do this because that is usually what people think. I just felt the need to convey my own personal reasons for what I believe. I know my opinion is not a popular one, but I'm not ashamed of what I believe, and I'm not afraid to share it. I do try to pick the right time though, and to share without seeming like I'm trying to "shove it down anyone's throat".

Bush says he puts his faith in God ... and it wins him a whole legion of diehard (and sometimes fanatical) people to form a rock-solid voter base for public opinion and policy making.

Sincerity or Political Savvy?

He lied about the WMD. Do you know how I know this? I worked in the Intel Community as an Arabic translator in the years leading up to the Iraq war. I left in disgust soon after. I know for a fact that our leaders lied about WMD in Iraq in order to win public opinion to the side of a war.

Even after basically admitting that they lied on national television "Oh we never said that ... oh our information was wrong" people still continue to believe that Iraq had WMD.

My simple question is, why in the world would you think he's telling the truth about putting his faith in God!?

TechBMW wrote:Bush says he puts his faith in God ... and it wins him a whole legion of diehard (and sometimes fanatical) people to form a rock-solid voter base for public opinion and policy making.

Sincerity or Political Savvy?

What you fail to realize is that the "leigon" of diehard voters you speak of are people who refuse to accept what television feeds them about the candidates. (I don't even have T.V.) If I am fanatical, then praise God!

But people like me are a minority. So how did Bush get elected? As to your "sincerity or political savvy" comment - sincerity is only for God to discern. Remember - I don't have television. I get my information from other sources.

TechBMW wrote:He lied about the WMD. Do you know how I know this? I worked in the Intel Community as an Arabic translator in the years leading up to the Iraq war. I left in disgust soon after. I know for a fact that our leaders lied about WMD in Iraq in order to win public opinion to the side of a war.

Even after basically admitting that they lied on national television "Oh we never said that ... oh our information was wrong" people still continue to believe that Iraq had WMD.

Tech, I respect you as a wrencher. I've spent some time doing that myself, albiet on cages. However, I find it hard to swallow that someone intelligent enough to be multi-lingual and understand the workings of a complex machine like a motorcycle is willing to accept anything fed to them by a biased media.

TechBMW wrote:My simple question is, why in the world would you think he's telling the truth about putting his faith in God!?

Simple questions get simple answers. I believe it because the Spirit of God inside me tells me to believe it.

Toyuzu wrote:I know my opinion is not a popular one, but I'm not ashamed of what I believe, and I'm not afraid to share it. I do try to pick the right time though, and to share without seeming like I'm trying to "shove it down anyone's throat".

I'm cool with you Toyuzu! I happen to believe we are all brothers - all of mankind. I appreciate a spirited debate, and I respect your faith.

I clearly don't agree, but I respect your views. I sure hope that your guy (Bush) doesn't do any more silly things I hate, but he was chosen by the voting majority, so there he is, and here I am. Good luck to us all, and I hope God IS watching over the whole thing.

JJ wrote:let me see

WMD - Wepons of Mass Desdruction found - 0

got WDM info from 'Inteligence' - Can you spell O-X-Y- M-O-R-O-N (can I emphasize the "MORON" part?)

Lives lost - Iraqi - countless
American - 1500+
(God rest their souls)

Iraqi homes destroyed 1000's

children injured in war 1000's
children orphaned 1000's
property damage - billions
US war deficit - trillions

# of Osama Bin Ladens caught - 0

Haliburton profits - soaring
New friends of the US Gov't - O

I truly feel very sorry for my American friends.
- Got screwed by Alqiada on 9/11.
- Continue to get screwed by Bush's vendetta against Iraq

Whew I feel better getting that off my chest.

JJ

PS If Bush was a corporate president and brought that status report to the board of directors he'd be out on his a-s-s before the end of the meeting

JJ you do know that we stopped some one that had more power than Osama Bin Ladens we killed Saddam Hussein or at least took him out of power. Now lets see yes billons of are money was spent and we lost 1600 men but the men that died new what they where dieing for the good of the world. If you don’t think that taking Saddam out was a good deal your crazy he killed millions of his own people for know reason. Do you want anyone like that ruling any country

Toyuzu wrote: Simple questions get simple answers. I believe it because the Spirit of God inside me tells me to believe it.

Your beliefs are yours ... no problem with that. And that really was what I was asking - why you believe what you do. And for the record ... I don't have TV either, and If I did, it would be in Italian anyway, which I'm still learning - either Italian, or the Armed Forces Overseas television network, which -believe me- is TOTALLY biased in favor of the military. (We call it Indoctrination TV)

Anyway, I do alot of reading. I read books on foreign affairs, politics, current events, and religion. I rarely read fiction. My current read is "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man" by John Perkins. Very good book, which explains the groundwork for why the American Government is almost universally loathed by third-world countries. Easy to read, and quite informative. It explains our economic agenda as it relates to poor countries and institutions like the World Bank, and Multi-national corporations over the last 40 years.

To make a long story short, This book, along with many others, (even reports written by Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, et al) lead me to believe that Not only is George Bush continuing the Socio-economic policies that have fertilized the ground for terrorism in third-world countries, but he has now moved our nation to accepting the fact that we will obliterate any nation which does not comply economically by using military force.

It's not as simple as saying Us, Good - Them, Evil, as most things rarely are. I started off different. Very strong Christian beliefs tied into a grand patriotism - love of God, and Love of my Country. The more I saw the way my country worked, the less I could reconcile its actions to those of Christ. Perhaps that has tainted my view, and if it has, so be it.

oldnslo wrote:I think he consults Dick Cheney more than God.

agree with that oldnslo. Bush is just the wooden puppet with Cheney's hand stuck up his backside

I am against any war, because there are always innocent lives being lost. Life is far too precious!