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Maybe I'm missing something here....maybe I was a natural or something. I can't relate to the seemingly extreme difficulty everyone else had "mastering" the throttle amd clutch. They way some of you talk sounds like you mastered some ancient martial art or something.

To say the super-sport 600's and 1000's are the same dimensions as the Ninja 250 is misleading at best. I steered my 6'5" newbie co-worker towards a liter bike for that very concern...because there's no way he'd fit on any 250. In addition, he's pretty good at walking and chewing gum at the same time, so I was pretty certain he wasn't gonna go out and (like some of you feel is inevitable) pop a wheelie and slam into a curb from a lack of ability to "master" the ancient technique of twisting a tube in one hand while squeezing something in another.

Look, if I pass you on the road I'll give you props via the patented two-finger biker wave...but it'll be for being on two wheels, not to congratulate you for being one step away from a degree in rocket science. Pat yourselves on the back for braving the world of motorcycling, but don't flatter yourself that you've mastered some extraordinary skill that newbies just can't fathom. I think a lot more people would die on bikes each year if the throttles were as touchy as some of you seem to believe they are. After dozens of posts in several threads about this very subject, it appears as though <10% of the forum members learned on the very bikes they appear to be convinced one must learn on. Almost everyone here learned on a bike 500cc or greater, and 500lbs or greater. So why push everyone else to putt around on a tiny-a$$ bike for a year only to have to sell the thing? And what's with this notion that EVERYONE will inevitably drop their bike??? The only parts of my first bike that touched the ground were the tires, kick-stand, and occasionally (during hard right turns) the exhaust. Please don't assume your experience was the norm, and please stop trying to convince every newbie that comes on this forum that learning to ride is akin to becoming a Jedi.

zootech wrote:Maybe I'm missing something here....maybe I was a natural or something. I can't relate to the seemingly extreme difficulty everyone else had "mastering" the throttle amd clutch. They way some of you talk sounds like you mastered some ancient martial art or something.

To say the super-sport 600's and 1000's are the same dimensions as the Ninja 250 is misleading at best. I steered my 6'5" newbie co-worker towards a liter bike for that very concern...because there's no way he'd fit on any 250. In addition, he's pretty good at walking and chewing gum at the same time, so I was pretty certain he wasn't gonna go out and (like some of you feel is inevitable) pop a wheelie and slam into a curb from a lack of ability to "master" the ancient technique of twisting a tube in one hand while squeezing something in another.

Look, if I pass you on the road I'll give you props via the patented two-finger biker wave...but it'll be for being on two wheels, not to congratulate you for being one step away from a degree in rocket science. Pat yourselves on the back for braving the world of motorcycling, but don't flatter yourself that you've mastered some extraordinary skill that newbies just can't fathom. I think a lot more people would die on bikes each year if the throttles were as touchy as some of you seem to believe they are. After dozens of posts in several threads about this very subject, it appears as though <10% of the forum members learned on the very bikes they appear to be convinced one must learn on. Almost everyone here learned on a bike 500cc or greater, and 500lbs or greater. So why push everyone else to putt around on a tiny-a$$ bike for a year only to have to sell the thing? And what's with this notion that EVERYONE will inevitably drop their bike??? The only parts of my first bike that touched the ground were the tires, kick-stand, and occasionally (during hard right turns) the exhaust. Please don't assume your experience was the norm, and please stop trying to convince every newbie that comes on this forum that learning to ride is akin to becoming a Jedi.

Sooo, brag brag brag, I'm great, and representative of the population.

Talk talk talk, I've steered ONE friend, ONE time towards a big bike (nighthawk which is designed for larger riders) and he did well. This means that someone who is 6 foot + will easily fit on that gixxer he wants. And do well on it. Despite US having NO idea of his abilities.

Smokers tell you not to start smoking. Does that mean we should ignore THEM too? There is something to be said from learning off another mistake.

I hope you never lay your bike down, it's sad to see something like that happen. But don't fool yourself into thinking it cannot happen, just because it hasn't yet.

It sounds like you're assuming that your experiences are the norm. I mean... that's what you're saying aren't you?

Speaking from somone who was recently faced with the choice, I have to say that there is value in both sides of the argument. In the end, I would recommend a non super-sport for most people. I would make an exception if they person asking was exceptionally coordinated, or a real good driver in general.

Maybe, the question should be posed like this: If a member of your family was getting into biking, what would you recommend? If my little brother wanted to get into riding, I would recommend a 600-750cc sport-tourer. Something preferably without a full fairing.

who said anything about being some great jedi with ninja style skills? noone said riding a bike of any kind is rocket surgery. but it does take a learned skill. noone is born with the ability to operate a motorcycle just as noone is born knowing how to walk. you have to learn these things. some people learn easier than other, but you do learn no matter how easy you might think something is.

we can have this debate endlessly but you never actually make a counter to any of my points. instead you go off on some stuff about jedis? or go on about how you dont think the throttle/clutch isnt touchy on a super sport(when i think most people here would say other wise in the hands of a beginner). you mentiond in the other thread your friend dumped the bike the first few feet, doesnt that tell you something?

i threw together a quick graphic showing the dimensions of a gsxr600 and a ninja250 to show theres no benefits for a Larger rider on the gsxr which people seem to think there is. no its not perfect scale its the best i can do at this hour in a few minutes with this much tequilla in me.

but look at the dimension and tell me how a person 6'3 fits Better on the gsx instead of the ninja250? you can see the seat height is a non issue, the pegs are far behind the seat and higher on the gsx, the ninja they are in front of the seat and lower(less crampt for longer legs). the handle bars are heigher on the ninja(no need to lay down on the tank) the over all length is pretty much the same. the dimensions of these two drastically different bikes is almost the same so it wouldnt effect a rider All that much imho. on top of that a supersport in no way ever was ment to be for comfort, the rider position is there to effect the performance of the bike. if your looking for comfort as your main selling factor then...

http://members.cox.net/segaslave/pictures/gsx-ninja.jpg

its not as good as my 3 newbie experience steps though

Lion_Lady wrote:IT isn't as hard as you think... if you've got your wrist high and lose focus, or your balance, you drop your wrist and there goes the throttle. WHAM! the bike is up and away, and you're on the pavement wondering what happened. Hopefully, not badly injured.

Someone posted about doing exactly that on an SV650. Bent the front rim (among other damage) when the bike landed on the curb.

Chosing an SV650 as your first bike is like taking a thoroughbred racehorse out for a 'walk,' they're both sensitive and tuned to GO which requires a great deal of focus and restraint to keep under control.

P

I just think under most circumstances, it is a great beginner bike, especially if your non-petite As a beginner, I am much more worried about peps on their cells than I am about accidently flipping it. Its a great beginner bike in the sense that it is fairly forgiving and you wont get bored with it right away. I dont want to minimize your concerns, I just wanted to step up and say that Im having a great experience with mine.

Also, it does require more restraint, as you said, because it does have more hp. Of course, some people will still hurt themselves on a ninja 500.

iwannadie wrote:

but look at the dimension and tell me how a person 6'3 fits Better on the gsx instead of the ninja250? you can see the seat height is a non issue, the pegs are far behind the seat and higher on the gsx, the ninja they are in front of the seat and lower(less crampt for longer legs). the handle bars are heigher on the ninja(no need to lay down on the tank) the over all length is pretty much the same. the dimensions of these two drastically different bikes is almost the same so it wouldnt effect a rider All that much imho. on top of that a supersport in no way ever was ment to be for comfort, the rider position is there to effect the performance of the bike. if your looking for comfort as your main selling factor then...

Everyone seems to forget, or they choose to overlook the fact that Mr. 6'3" rider will completely overwelm the suspension on your Ninja 250. I've had a VTR250 in the garage for 11 years and I really have to shake my head at the ignorance in recommending that size of bike for a large person. Do you really understand what you are recommending to other riders?????
While I don't advocate a supersport for any new rider, there are reasonable choices in bikes that aren't under 500cc.s I.M.O. ZOOTECH has it spot on with this quote, and it's what I have been saying here for a long time....

zootech wrote: I think a lot more people would die on bikes each year if the throttles were as touchy as some of you seem to believe they are. After dozens of posts in several threads about this very subject, it appears as though <10% of the forum members learned on the very bikes they appear to be convinced one must learn on.

High_Side wrote:

iwannadie wrote:

but look at the dimension and tell me how a person 6'3 fits Better on the gsx instead of the ninja250? you can see the seat height is a non issue, the pegs are far behind the seat and higher on the gsx, the ninja they are in front of the seat and lower(less crampt for longer legs). the handle bars are heigher on the ninja(no need to lay down on the tank) the over all length is pretty much the same. the dimensions of these two drastically different bikes is almost the same so it wouldnt effect a rider All that much imho. on top of that a supersport in no way ever was ment to be for comfort, the rider position is there to effect the performance of the bike. if your looking for comfort as your main selling factor then...

Everyone seems to forget, or they choose to overlook the fact that Mr. 6'3" rider will completely overwelm the suspension on your Ninja 250. I've had a VTR250 in the garage for 11 years and I really have to shake my head at the ignorance in recommending that size of bike for a large person. Do you really understand what you are recommending to other riders?????
While I don't advocate a supersport for any new rider, there are reasonable choices in bikes that aren't under 500cc.s I.M.O. ZOOTECH has it spot on with this quote, and it's what I have been saying here for a long time....

zootech wrote: I think a lot more people would die on bikes each year if the throttles were as touchy as some of you seem to believe they are. After dozens of posts in several threads about this very subject, it appears as though <10% of the forum members learned on the very bikes they appear to be convinced one must learn on.

because your 6'3" it makes you heavy? of course evey bike has its limits for weight, but who says someoen 6'3" has to be heavy? plenty of 5'5" people that can weight just as much as someone thats 6'3". i guess every line backer should be put on super sports... wait we saw in the news what happens with that scenario didnt we.

how does putting a Heavy rider on top of a taller top heavy bike with a much more performance tuned stiff suspension make it safer? if you exceed the weight limit of the bike you shouldnt be on one.

Which is why some of us have been advocating older ujm or smaller size cruiser for larger riders.

In the event of a smaller rider we suggest that they take a ninja either a 250 or a 500.
The argument is not that they should take a 250, but that they should NOT take a 600 because of their size. There are other options out there, and size is not a reasonable argument for a 600cc supersport.

iwannadie wrote:because your 6'3" it makes you heavy? of course evey bike has its limits for weight, but who says someoen 6'3" has to be heavy? plenty of 5'5" people that can weight just as much as someone thats 6'3". i guess every line backer should be put on super sports... wait we saw in the news what happens with that scenario didnt we.

how does putting a Heavy rider on top of a taller top heavy bike with a much more performance tuned stiff suspension make it safer? if you exceed the weight limit of the bike you shouldnt be on one.

250cc Japaneese bikes are designed for 120lb. riders. Do you think many 6'3" riders weigh less than 180lbs.? A heavy 5'5" rider would also overload the 250Ninja, perhaps they should look at getting the 500.
Did I say that they should be on Supersports? No. I've owned and ridden a 250cc sportsbike for quite a # of years. (well actually the wife owned it). And while scans from Motorcyclist Magazine tell you all about ergos, they don't tell you that the seat is as wide as dental floss and everything is built extremely light duty on a 250. A 200lb rider is not what they were designed for. But maybe if they like wearing thongs.... And it's not about performance suspension. It's about stability and handling the load......

Sevulturus wrote: Sooo, brag brag brag, I'm great, and representative of the population.

This seems to be your stance, not mine.

Sevulturus wrote: Talk talk talk, I've steered ONE friend, ONE time towards a big bike (nighthawk which is designed for larger riders) and he did well. This means that someone who is 6 foot + will easily fit on that gixxer he wants. And do well on it. Despite US having NO idea of his abilities.

Someone who is 6 foot + will fit better on a Gixxer than a 250cc anything. It's called geometry, and you should have covered it in middle-school.

And it was a Honda Hawk, not a NightHawk. A Hawk is a fuel-injected 1,000cc bike.

Sevulturus wrote: Smokers tell you not to start smoking. Does that mean we should ignore THEM too? There is something to be said from learning off another mistake.

What? No reference to someone telling you to jump off a bridge?

Sevulturus wrote: I hope you never lay your bike down, it's sad to see something like that happen. But don't fool yourself into thinking it cannot happen, just because it hasn't yet.

I'm well aware of the possibility every time I throw my leg over my bike. But A) you seem convinced that it must happen, and B) using your logic, the 250cc bikes are undroppable.

swatter555 wrote:Speaking from somone who was recently faced with the choice, I have to say that there is value in both sides of the argument. In the end, I would recommend a non super-sport for most people. I would make an exception if they person asking was exceptionally coordinated, or a real good driver in general.

Don't get me wrong here...I'm not personally advocating a Super Sport...it could be just a bigger bike period, a standard or a cruiser. I for one don't like the ergos of crotch rockets and couldn't stand to ride one for more than a half hour at a time...I'm just advocating letting someone get what they want and not trying to scare them towards a mini-bike just so they look up to you like you had to slay a dragon before earning the right to ride the bike you're on.

iwannadie wrote:who said anything about being some great jedi with ninja style skills? noone said riding a bike of any kind is rocket surgery.

Every time a newbie pops up on these boards they are swarmed with people telling them how hard it is to "master" the throttle and clutch and that they should go buy a bike that barely moves under its own power so they don't die. Why not just pass a law while you're at it forbidding anyone from buying a motorcycle until they've ridden a scooter for 10k miles?

iwannadie wrote: we can have this debate endlessly but you never actually make a counter to any of my points. instead you go off on some stuff about jedis? or go on about how you dont think the throttle/clutch isnt touchy on a super sport(when i think most people here would say other wise in the hands of a beginner).

Show me where you've countered any of my points. All you have is some sort of personal conviction that the 250cc bikes of the world are the right-of-passage for all who wish to join the brotherhood of biking. Have you even sat on one of these things?

iwannadie wrote: you mentiond in the other thread your friend dumped the bike the first few feet, doesnt that tell you something?

No, it tells me two things. A) He's a crazy donkey, and probably shouldn't ride motorcycles...and B) After having NEVER ridden before, he learns on a NightHawk 250 at the MSF course, then has no frickin' idea what to expect from a REAL motorcycle in real-world conditions.

iwannadie wrote: i threw together a quick graphic showing the dimensions of a gsxr600 and a ninja250 to show theres no benefits for a Larger rider on the gsxr which people seem to think there is. no its not perfect scale its the best i can do at this hour in a few minutes with this much tequilla in me.

The numbers are, more often than not, very misleading. The 2005 Suzuki C90 has an extrememly low seat height...but my feet can't touch flat to the ground...because the seat itself is so fricken' wide. Likewise, I have actually sat on a Honda 600F4i AND a Ninja 250. There is no comparing the two as far as ergos or weight. Ross Perot liked to throw graphics and charts around too.

iwannadie wrote: but look at the dimension and tell me how a person 6'3 fits Better on the gsx instead of the ninja250?

I don't have to read specifications to know. I've sat on both.

swatter555 wrote:

Lion_Lady wrote: Chosing an SV650 as your first bike is like taking a thoroughbred racehorse out for a 'walk,' they're both sensitive and tuned to GO which requires a great deal of focus and restraint to keep under control.

I just think under most circumstances, it is a great beginner bike, especially if your non-petite As a beginner, I am much more worried about peps on their cells than I am about accidently flipping it. Its a great beginner bike in the sense that it is fairly forgiving and you wont get bored with it right away. I dont want to minimize your concerns, I just wanted to step up and say that Im having a great experience with mine.

Three major magazines agree with you, Swatter, I don't know what the heck Lion_Lady is talking about.

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Bottom line is this...I think an majority of you 250cc advocates have made a leap of logic. For someone who has NEVER EVER ridden a motorcycle, the MSF exists to give them a feel of what it's all about. And you have concluded that since the MSF uses 250cc bikes, that they must be the uber-perfect beginner bike. On the contrary, though, they use them for the very reason someone else posted on another thread...because they're cheap and because they have to fit the lowest-common-denominator.

That's it...period. MSF uses them for the very reasons that 90% of riders shouldn't use them.