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bigswifty wrote:hey beerslinger...thanks for being a good sport about my somewhat abusive post. I apprecitate the succint reply.

you can prolby pull it off if you persevere.

Ahhh.......It wasent that bad at all........You would be suprised how much ridicule I use to recieve because I use to love Harleys and I could never afford them.

To some small degree I expected it a little here because I'm just now learning the fundementals of engines. I'm not saying that I thought it was something majical, but I just never understand mechanics. But I know that all will come in time. The big thing is getting a little experience........because in this game, eperience is expensive.......

Pre-Evolution HD Engines are the easiest I have ever worked on .
Their a piece of cake compared to say Triumph or Honda engines .
Kind regards, Wizzard

Wizzard wrote:Pre-Evolution HD Engines are the easiest I have ever worked on .
Their a piece of cake compared to say Triumph or Honda engines .
Kind regards, Wizzard

Are you talken the Shovel and Panhead motors? If you are what are the specs, I'm getting really conflicting information on them.

Displacement:
Engine type:
Stroke:
Power:
Compression:
Bore x stroke:
Valves per cylinder:
Fuel control:
Cooling system:
Gearbox:
Transmission type final drive:

That is one ugly POS........

Why would you want to try to recreate something that you know nothing about? What's wrong with buying yourself a project bike, and restoring it. If you think you can't afford a project bike I really doubt you can afford to build one (from the ground up?). After the engine which can easily cost you 6 grand and the frame at maybe 3 grand (I'm not talking about cheap crappy parts), you still have a long way to go before you reach the "nickle dimeing" stage. One of my friends is currently building a bike and it's amazing all the things you think are little before you start that turn out to be big, (same deal with my own project) I'm not sure what you're calling "ground up" it sounds like you don't want a custom, ground up to me means starting with a pile of raw steel, a motor, carbs, tires, and brakes and ending with a bike.

I think the last thing you need to do if you want to learn what it's like to build a bike it watch American Chopper, those guys don't build bikes to ride, and they make it look easy... it's not.

I certianly respect your' standoff approach I've always been more of a head firster because I can't learn jack from a book... my crash course methods have cost me a lot of money (but it's never in vain)

Pick up a J&P Cycles vintage catalog (all harley, all the time)

I wanted to take some time with this post because it deals with a lot of the quintessential reasons for why I originally posted. So, if my post seems a little long, please forgive me.

mysta2 wrote:Why would you want to try to recreate something that you know nothing about? What's wrong with buying yourself a project bike, and restoring it. If you think you can't afford a project bike I really doubt you can afford to build one (from the ground up?). After the engine which can easily cost you 6 grand and the frame at maybe 3 grand (I'm not talking about cheap crappy parts), you still have a long way to go before you reach the "nickle dimeing" stage. One of my friends is currently building a bike and it's amazing all the things you think are little before you start that turn out to be big, (same deal with my own project) I'm not sure what you're calling "ground up" it sounds like you don't want a custom, ground up to me means starting with a pile of raw steel, a motor, carbs, tires, and brakes and ending with a bike.

First I think many presumptions have been made what I want to do or what I’ve intended by your post. Mostly at this point, I was trying to see what is out there and exactly what I wanted. Some things are obvious. First are the things are bikes I don’t want:

• Tour Bike
• Crotch Rockets
• Under 800cc
• Chopper
• Off-Road Bikes

That would lead to the next point. There are many bikes that are over 800cc that would be more practical then an HD and that is obvious. But I have had one by a foreign manufacturer before and I spent the time on that bike wanting nothing more then to set it aflame and to get myself a Harley.

Now, it would be nice if I could find a bike that was in distress and give it some care and bring it back to spec’s but I don’t think that its going to happen around here. I would love to think that it could happen but that’s like trying to find a supermodel to marry in the middle of Flint Michigan. Most of the bikes that are around here are people whom want to dump there Harleys for around $14,000 (that seems to be the magic number here) and they are usually the tour bikes. So with that in mind there are a couple of other things that I refuse to do:

• Buy a new Harley Davidson; it would take far too long to look at this option.
• Buy someone else’s old crap

Now that I have said what I won’t do, the list that I will do is much larger because at this point, everything is on the table. To presume what I will do is a little to far premature because the part of the plan that your talking about I haven’t even considered. At this point, I’m doing an open forum of what I do like and that is:

• Low Rider
• Fat Boy
• 1958 Duo Glide (possibly not to spec)

Now, you claim that I’m reinventing the wheel and to some degree you maybe right. I will admit that a Harley is a very, very, very expensive proposition indeed. At best, at this time I plan to devote about $5000 a year to it. I will admit that this figure is nothing stellar or anything to be proud of. So I hope in a few years from idea to road that it maybe accomplished. But the first thing to bear in mind is that I haven’t made my mind up on anything with the exception of the two things that I won’t do.

What I have decided is that I’m never going to be taken advantage of again which is part of the reason why I may not put the thing completely together but I would hope to have some hand in it. When I owned my foreign bike I knew less then nothing and I was soaked because I didn’t know the basics of small engines. But at the time I didn’t know any better and I didn’t know what to question. This time around, I want things to be different. I don’t want to claim that I will be able to fix everything but I don’t want to have to rely on every F&*%ing dealer that is out there for something a little more sophisticated then an oil change. And that’s why I’m doing my studying right now (or will start soon) because there will be subjects that I will never be comfortable with and some things I can’t do but at least if I can hold a conversation with a mechanic, I want to be able to hold an intelligent conversation and know what he is talking about and there will be an improvement.

Another reason why I’m doing this is to buy the tools. I know that I could rely on someone to do everything but I don’t want to do that. I know your probably thinking why buy the tools for the transmission or something other that you have specific in mind but you don’t know what I have. When I said that I’m starting from scratch, I meant that more then literally. I think that I might have 4 screwdrivers and one very small ratchet set around this whole d#$%ed house and that is it. Most of the time when I need something, I have to borrow it or hope that a relative has it and it’s getting pretty f&%*ing old.

Outside of that, the dealer that I have last spoken to has been one of the best that I have even seen. I say that because he was cool about how he sold his bikes (or parts therein). Frankly, he would sell me new, used, part, whole, aftermarket or any other configuration. I know that some ways of doing things are cheaper then doing them others but that’s not what I’m after. Frankly, one of the biggest objectives in doing this is just to know the piece of steel that is between my legs when I’m riding it. It doesn’t mean that I have to go forge the steel myself, but it does mean that when it leaks or doesn’t start that I will have some direction of knowing and possibly the knowledge to fix it. So to presume that I expect this to be easy, cheap, efficient, or hassle free is the least from my mind.

mysta2 wrote:I think the last thing you need to do if you want to learn what it's like to build a bike it watch American Chopper, those guys don't build bikes to ride, and they make it look easy... it's not.

I’m not sure that if you were being sarcastic or truthful by this remark but I have never once watched an episode with the OCC crew and I probably never will. First, I hate yelling and reality TV. Second, I hate choppers. Third, I’m afraid that they will raise my expectations and I don’t want that. Right now they are very low because I expect this to be one of the hardest, most grueling and expensive ventures I’ve ever faced and I want to keep it that way. Right now, my only goal is whatever I decide on will see some real road time and that is it.

I know personally, I’m not intimidated by anything and maybe that is really a bad thing. Just like when I talk to my cousin and we talk about tearing down a motor and putting new head gaskets on or doing something else that touches includes tearing into one you would think that its brain surgery or rocket science. Personally, I’m not intimidated but on the other hand I’m not stupid either (or at least I think). Because I always respond (with the proper manuals) how are you going to learn? But he always tells me that it’s too expensive and not worth the time. Maybe he is right…

mysta2 wrote:I certianly respect your' standoff approach I've always been more of a head firster because I can't learn jack from a book... my crash course methods have cost me a lot of money (but it's never in vain)

Well, I would learn best with a working or non-working bike the best and then take it step by step but that’s far too expensive and a waist of money…so working with the knowledge is the best option at this point, I would think…

Pick up a J&P Cycles vintage catalog (all harley, all the time)[/quote]

Thanks for that…I didn’t know anything about that magazine…

Oh, and I forgot to mention that I didn't know anything about American Chopper other then that name till I talked to my cousin a few days ago....that's how I learned OCC (orange county crew I think) name. In that conversation I heard a few of there names but I can't remember most of them.

He said that doesn't understand how they get anything done? Or at least with out the old man (I don't know his name).......is this true?

I've never watched that show.....and I never intend to, but can someone who builds bikes attest to this?

I like this guy

BeerSlinger wrote:...I know personally, I’m not intimidated by anything and maybe that is really a bad thing...

That's a great thing. Yes you are reinventing the wheel... make it better this time.

I know I don't have to say this, but, you have to understand that any of us that have been in fabrication for a while have unavoidably developed a certian attitude when it comes to conversations like your' title post. I get approached all the time with peoples fantastic ideas that they need my fabrication, or milling, or painting help with and you just have to smile and nod because 99% of the time the idea just fades away in the next day/week/month.

you sound like the 1% (although I'm not sure you sound like a 1%er )

There are a couple of reasons people hate OCC (Orange County Choppers) the biggest being that they are big and popular and it's cool to rag on anything that's popular. Also they make boulevard ornaments and trade show props, when they build, all thier concerned with is the visual impact of the bike, they don't know or care about frame geometry, weight, safety, balance, or ergonomics. So thier bikes end up like cartoon caracatures of what most people would consider a real bike.

To change the tune a bit though, if you've never seen any of the MotorcycleMania, BikerBuildoff, or even AmericanChopper shows, checking them out would be a good idea, although they do have thier failings, the biggest of which is that it will make bike building look a lot easier then it is. They will also expose you to things that you would have never thought of before, help build a vocabulary, and god forbid maybe even give you some ideas.

If I have this straight you want to build a completely stock HD from spares right? I can't help latching onto the 50's Duo Glide because that's the coolest one. Would you be into building something that simply looks like an updated '58 Duo Glide (I assume that's the military looking one) If so I suggest you pick up a cycle trader and start looking for a couple year old Buell you can pick up for around 3,500. With a Buell you have the advantage of housing the transmission and motor all in one, and more importantly the reliability of a motor that's only been turning a couple of years (don't go back too far with Buells though, they've had a sorted past). It will still have the Harley twin look (I can't tell the difference anyway) This is how Redneck Engineering builds thier choppers. You could essentially do the same thing but use a replica frame from J&P Cycles you would have to fab new motor mounts and axle spacers at least, also the frame may require some additional stiffening to handle the new motor. If you don't mind the look you could also scavenge the wheels, tires, and brake systems.

Pick up How To Build a Cheap Chopper, I know you don't want to build a "chopper" but it will give you a lot of good information on parts and procedures, and to an extent; building a bike is building a bike.

BeerSlinger wrote:...But he always tells me that it’s too expensive and not worth the time. Maybe he is right…

he's dead wrong, if you learn something it's worth it

yeah try build or bust on speed channel...they make no jokes about how easy it is...at least half of the people on that show fail.

mysta2 wrote:I get approached all the time with peoples fantastic ideas that they need my fabrication, or milling, or painting help with and you just have to smile and nod because 99% of the time the idea just fades away in the next day/week/month.

If anything, I can understand because before 2000 I worked in computers then got my bachelors and I’ve spent the last few years with guns and it’s the same deal. I was afraid after my first post that most people would think that I have an attitude that I was gonna “fist f&*$” the world with my ideas and that just wasn’t the case. That’s why I have had to explain that I’m taking a measured approach to approaching riding again and getting the bike that like.

mysta2 wrote:If I have this straight you want to build a completely stock HD from spares right? I can't help latching onto the 50's Duo Glide because that's the coolest one. Would you be into building something that simply looks like an updated '58 Duo Glide (I assume that's the military looking one) If so I suggest you pick up a cycle trader and start looking for a couple year old Buell you can pick up for around 3,500. With a Buell you have the advantage of housing the transmission and motor all in one, and more importantly the reliability of a motor that's only been turning a couple of years (don't go back too far with Buells though, they've had a sorted past). It will still have the Harley twin look (I can't tell the difference anyway) This is how Redneck Engineering builds thier choppers. You could essentially do the same thing but use a replica frame from J&P Cycles you would have to fab new motor mounts and axle spacers at least, also the frame may require some additional stiffening to handle the new motor. If you don't mind the look you could also scavenge the wheels, tires, and brake systems.

Yeah, Yeah, Yeah….its a bit of an LWA spinoff, without a suicide shifter. I would like to go with most HD stock but I won’t turn up my nose on something that’s not until I know more…

I think that part of the reason why I was confused about the older engines is because I didn’t understand the different models that were out. Then I found this:

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/harley4.htm

Because I look at the old and the new and this one turned me on the most. First it was the ’56 FLH but it seemed to much like a sportster when I starting digging for more information (http://www.vintagebike.co.uk/Bike%20Dir ... 201956.htm) so after while I found the 58 duo glide which looks like a later model but seemed to be a bigger bike (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1958-HD- ... dZViewItem) But to be honest, I know I wanted something larger then a 45 cubic inch but I’m not sure that I want anything as large as a 82 cubic inch. I maybe going through a Goldie Locks syndrome but I’m beginning to think (just on paper) that my ideal engine would be a 74 cubic inch. Part of when I’ve been looking at bikes, I’ve been looking at the engines first and everything else second…But to a certain extent, I still don’t know what I’m talking about because I still have a lot of homework to do…

Looking @ buells is a little further then I am right now, I have skimmed over what your talking about and it is at least one book out from even looking at them, I would like to know a lot more about chassis then I currently know because right now I don’t know anything. Though I may have questions when I know more later on…

In reguard to your book, I was looking at that one….I’ll probably pick it up….

On the other hand, I do understand my cousins point because he has the attitude that if you screw something up when your putting your motor together…….it will cost you a lot of money when it blows up……And to a point I understand because before the last few weeks, I’ve been spending most of my time with firearms. I know that it is a drastic comparison but it is still fair because with both, you’re dealing with a controlled explosion….